AAA Modification Suggestion

[EagleDNY]

I'd like to make the suggestion that something be done to improve the AAA at land bases.  IMHO the 37mm mannable ack on land bases is pretty much useless against anything except some newbie diving right down on it.

As someone who has had his tail blown off multiple times by CV ack (and rightfully so), I think a simple solution would be to replace the 37mm mannables with the 5" singles from the CVs.  I think this gives you several advantages:

1.  You have a weapon that has at least a chance of stopping buffs level bombing the airfield.

2.  We dive-bombing types are sure to have a more realistic anus-puckering sensation when nosing over onto a trio of blasting 5-inchers.  
 
3.  You get additional GV fun by getting into gun duels with invading enemy GVs.  

For low-level ack you still have your Osti's and M16s, and the other auto-guns on the field.  

I think this gives you a somewhat more realistic airfield scenario.   It would be nice if land-bases had as much AAA capability as a CV, and as it is now (with the 37mms), AAA is nowhere near as dangerous over land as it actually was during the war.  

Just my $.02 worth.

EagleDNY

[frank3]

Would get alot of agitation like we currently have on the cv's.
It would be nice to be able to do something again high level buffs, but currently, the manable flak on the cv's is just too accurate to be fun.

[MANDO]

You may ask also for SAM sites and laser towers, whatever but to pickup a fighter or a flak or M16 to deffend your base

So the enemy has took his time to reach to your base, kill the deffenders (if any), kill your auto-acks, destroy your hangars, but, of course, why to expend the same time as the enemy taking off from a nearby base to deffend yours? Much better to jump in a second to your big uber gun and start killing bandits like ducks.

About the high buffs, well, I hate them, but these players have expent a lot of play-time to reach that alt, they (as players) do not deserve to be fulminated by any uber gun, you are always free to pick up an interceptor and kill them (while risking yourself a bit and expending a bit of your play-time also).

Now we have the next absurd situation with CVs. Someone notices a red bar inside his CV sector, no one takes off to setup a CAP over the CV. Now some red dots are clearly visible in the radar aproaching the CV, no one takes off to intercept the bandits. When the dots are really close someone jumps into a 5" gun and vaporizes the enemies few seconds later. The situation repeats several times.

The final result is:

player X landed 3 victories expending 30 seconds.
3 players, wasting 10 minutes, have die and the CV is not even smoking.

But the most usual result is player X landed 17 victories or more in field or ship gunner without expending a single second trying to deffend the CV in a plane.


Where are the CAPs?, where are the fighter sweeps?

[EagleDNY]

As someone who has done level bombing on CVs, I can tell you that the 5" AAA does not STOP the bombing, but it does keep it up higher.  Folks level bombing vs 5" ack at 3K alt, get vaporized routinely (as it should be), but at 13K you might only lose 1 or maybe 2 of the group.  

Divebombing & Low Level Strafing of the ack guns should be dangerous.  With a CV group you've got 4 x 5" on CV, plus another 4 per cruiser, so you get to face 8-12 AAA 5" on a CV run.  What I am proposing is putting 3 x 5" in in land base, which shouldn't be equivalent to the instant vaporization to which you refer, but should make the base at least defendable with ack.  
Thats' not to say that those 5" guns won't be taken out either - adding the 5" base ack just gives you another priority target besides the VH & FHs.  

If you've ever seen film of American Jabos strafing a German airfield, you see them facing everything from 88 batteries to flak towers.  I still think the idea of replacing the virtually useless 37mm manned ack (why not just up an osti?) with a single 5" gun will both add to the realism and make the gameplay better.  
I don't think 3 5" guns are going to make a base impregnable by any shake of the imagination, and the cheap kills are a lot more likely to be made the vulchers swooping in from 5K over the runway than by the manned 5".  If anything, some manned 5" might lessen the unfortunate vulture mentality by keeping the enemy off the field far enough for you to at least get wheels up.

EagleDNY
$.02 More....

[EagleDNY]

I've been on the receiving end of that single Tiffy dive into the CV only to be vaporized.  Strategy DOES matter, if I dive into 12 manned and ready 5" guns, then I get what I get.  If I bring a few buddies and we all dive in from multiple points, then one or two of us get wacked and the rest get their bombs off.  

I think the CV ack situation is better than the alternative - having a constant stream of kamikazes just show up one at a time until the CV gets wacked.  

EagleDNY
Another $.02

[frank3]

Anyhow, the mannable flak is way too accurate to be realistic, so don't throw up arguments like 'they were manable in real life too'

So I doubt your idea will be even considered Eagle, sorry.

(but you made $0.06 )

[Charon]

Anyhow, the mannable flak is way too accurate to be realistic, so don't throw up arguments like 'they were manable in real life too'

Actually it is a bit too tame for the '44 - '45 timeframe that is modeled. Missing dozens of 20mms, missing some 40mms, missing some 5", missing  the advanced gunnery director systems (but the proximity fuzes are modeled). And that's just the carrier. Same for the cruiser,  and the DEs are a step down from the full sized DDs and no Battleships with twice the AA firepower of the cruiser.

Here's a link on the Mk. 51 Director, that could control up to 6 - 40mm mounts and provided gyro-based lead computation.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-049.htm


and another to the USS Enterprise site:

http://www.cv6.org/ship/camo-radar.htm

Mk 51 Director
Description:   A simple, one-man director, equipped with an Mk 14 gyrosight. The gyrosight, developed at MIT, computed the gun's lead angle as the target was tracked by line-of-sight. Aboard Enterprise, Mk 51 directors initially controlled 40mm guns, but during her 1945 refit, additional Mk 51's were installed for directing the 5"/38 guns against close-in targets.
Installations:   Late 1943 - 1945: At least one Mk 51 director was installed, at the bow of the ship, connected to the twin 40mm gun at the same location. It appears that 4-6 other Mk 51 directors were installed at locations along the gun galleries, but this hasn't been confirmed.
    1945 (post-refit): Four Mk 51 directors, each connected to one pair of 5"/38 guns, plus seven directors for control of individual 40mm mounts.

FWIW airfield defenses are way too tame by historical standards. There was a good account of a Tenmpest attack on a German airfield that has been posted here, but I can't find right now.

Charon

[straffo]

this one Charon ?
 

Excerpt from The Big Show by Pierre Clostermann.

We were at 14,000 feet and kept straight on over to the left, as if we had no intention of attacking. I took a close look at the field: the small crosses parked just where we expected them showed up on the bright green grass of early spring. I particularly noticed one, two, four, seven flak towers. Their shadows clearly projected on the perimeter track by the sun

'Look out Filmstar Leader, flak at 6 o'clock!'

Sure enough, 200 yards behind us five big black puffs from 88 mm. shells had appeared. OK, five more seconds and then I would attack. The objective was behind us and we were facing the sun. Fear caught me by the throat and stopped me breathing. Aerial combat always found me calm -
after the early stages - but flak was quite different.

'Drop your tanks, Filmstar'.

My stomach contracted and a wave of nausea swept over me - the advantage of a single-seater is that you can pass out with fear without anybody noticing.

'Quick. 180 port, go.'

This would bring us back facing the airfield, with the sun at our backs.

'Diving--full out, Filmstar!'

My nine Tempests were beautifully echeloned on my left although we were diving almost
vertically.

'Smell of flowers,' came Bay Adams voice mockingly in the earphones. Flak! Christ, what flak! The entire surface of the airfield seemed to light up with the flashes from 20mm and 37mm guns. There must have been at least 40 of them. A carpet of white puffs spread out below us and the black puffs of the 37's stood out in regular string of eight.

What flak! Physical fear is the most terrible thing a man can suffer - my heart leaped into my mouth, I was covered with sweat, with sticky, clammy sweat. My clenched toes swam in my boots.

We dived desperately into the  moke…explosions and tracer to left and right crossing over and under us….bangs around our wings and sinister dazzling flashes.

We were a mile from the perimeter, 150 feet from the ground. Men were running hither and thither.

'Lower for Christ's sake,' I yelled hysterically. The broad expanse of grass, carved by the gray runways, tilted up before my eyes and rushed towards me. We were doing over 450 mph. First a hangar … a bowser … then the Messerschmitts, perched clumsily on their narrow gear, about thirty of them, with men crouching under their wings. Too far to the left, unfortunately, outside my line of fire.

A group of a dozen Arados loomed up in my sight. I fired, I fired frantically, my thumb jammed on the button. My shells formed a ribbon of explosion worming its way between the Arados, climbing up the fuselage, hitting theengines … smoke …one of the planes exploded just as I was over it, and my Tempest was tossed up by the burning gust. A Tempest touched the ground and the fuselage
bounded up in a shower of fragments of smashed wings and tailplanes. More hangars in front of me. I fired a second burst-it exploded on the galvanized iron doors and the steel tanchions.

'Look out , Red 2' My No. 2 was coming straight for me, out of control, at a terrific speed. His hood had gone. At 470 mph 20 yards to my right, he went smack into a flak tower, cutting it in two beneath the platform.

The wooden frame flew into the air. A cluster of men hanging on to a gun collapsed into space. The Tempest crashed on the edge of the field, furrowing through a group of little houses, with a terrific flash of light; the engine had come adrift in a whirlwind of flames and fragments scattered in the sky.

It was all over … almost. One, two, three … the tracer bullets were pursuing me. I lowered my head and hunched myself behind my rear plating … twelve, thirteen, fourteen … I was going to cheat …a salvo of 37 burst so close that I got only the flash of the explosions without seeing the smoke…splinters rained down on my  uselage…nineteen, twenty! I pulled the stick back and climbed straight up into the sky. The flak kept on.

I glanced back towards Schwerin, just visible under my tailplane. A thousand feet below a Tempest was climbing in zig-zags, the tracer stubbornly pursuing him. Fires near the hangars, columns of greasy smoke, a fireworks display of exploding magnesium bombs. The lone Tempest caught me up, waggled his wings and formed up line abreast.

'Hallo, Filmstar aircraft, reform south of target, angels 10.'

'Hallo, Pierre, Red 3 here, You know, I think the rest have had it.'

Surely Bay couldn't be right! I scanned the 360 degrees of the horizon, and the terrific pyramid of flak bursts above Schwerin right up to the clouds, hanging in the still air. No one.

1304 hours. We had attacked at 1303 hours. The nightmare had lasted perhaps 35 seconds from the beginning of our dive, and we had lost eight aircraft out of ten….

[Charon]

That's the one Straffo. Pretty grim.

Charon

[nirvana]

The way some guys use those 5 inch guns I would say they brought their own gyroscopic cites.  Getting toasted at 10K going 400MPH in a steep dive is just annoyance.

[frank3]

Impressive story you brought up there Straffo, thanks for sharing.

[hubsonfire]

I'm not sure I like the idea of 5" ack on the fields, at least not in the armored 2 gun turrets that are favored on the boats. I'd have no issues with the dual or quad 40mm mounts (bofors? there was a post with pics/info a while back) on the fields. I am of the opinion that fields could use a bit more protection, but HiTech had brought up the point of balance for gameplay at some point in the past. Not enough ack and its instant vulch fest; too much ack and people will just circle over the field and let the ack pulverize anyone who ventures too close. Having mentioned that, I think it fair to point out the current trend in path-of-least-resistance hoarde warfare, porking, and vulching, and The fact that 2 or 3 cannon birds can deack in a field in 2 to 3 passes. More mannable ack, and some larger, more effective defensive weapons might be worth a shot. I'm against the 5" turrets simply because they hit out to sickening ranges, and I personally feel that they would hamper some of the very enjoyable furballs we often have in close proximity to airfields.

[EagleDNY]

I'm not advocating the twin 5" turret mounts, I'm suggesting the single 5" gun mount on the bow of the carrier.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by EagleDNY

1.  You have a weapon that has at least a chance of stopping buffs level bombing the airfield.

2.  We dive-bombing types are sure to have a more realistic anus-puckering sensation when nosing over onto a trio of blasting 5-inchers.  
 
3.  You get additional GV fun by getting into gun duels with invading enemy GVs.  

Very true.  We need something that can actually stop them before dropping.

However, field guns can be taken out with 1 or 2 20mm hits.  Even worse, people will use them to fire at fighters figting 5K out even when buffs ar eon the way.  You know, like they do now with the CV guns.

[AKDogg]

Ack should be harder to take out.  Should be more of them on the field along with a mix of more powerful guns.  They should also only be down for 5-10 mins.  This will stop most of the vulching or at least keep it to a min.