Author Topic: Nash....at Charon's request  (Read 2339 times)

Offline Torque

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2005, 12:16:07 AM »
frontline covered all that months if not years ago in great detail, it is one of the few media outlets still worthy of viewing.

the backroom neocons would eat their own to further their political dogma. they trashed mccain, powell, well his is damaged goods after commiserating in halabja. they're sly.

voting should be manatory.

Offline Thrawn

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2005, 07:44:50 AM »
I don't get it.  If I openly tell people I want to take over the world (or whatever) and here's how I'm going to do it, then proceed to follow that course...how the heck is it a conspiracy?  :confused:

Offline oboe

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2005, 08:28:16 AM »
The legal definition of conspiracy:

Law. An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.

Due to the illegal nature, they are generally secretive, but they wouldn't have to be.    Notice in the definition "commit a crime" and "accomplish a legal purpose" complement each other - together they describe just about any possible action.

So basically a conspiracy is an agreement to commit an illegal action.

Was the Iraqi invasion illegal?

Offline Toad

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2005, 10:31:07 AM »
Went off to watch "Into the West". I can only give the first episode a "C".

Now, I read all the diatribes.

Assume you folks are infallible and have it all 100% correct.


What did PNAC do that was illegal?

"a bunch of men who had stated openly their objectives with regard to Iraq,"

Illegal?

"then they got into positions to achieve those objectives,"

Illegal?

"and then the objectives were achieved"

Illegal?


Yeah, I know in your version they all decided to conquer Iraq with US troops back in 1973 or something. Understand.

What did they do that is legally actionable?

In short, does or does not our Constitution allow this? For example if MADD decided to reinstate prohibition and a bunch of women/men who had stated openly their objectives with regard to Prohibition, then got into positions to achieve those objectives, and then the objectives were achieved in a new Constitutional amendment, would that be illegal?

You have no problem with the process, correct? Do I understand that correctly?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Airhead

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2005, 10:46:47 AM »
You only gave "Into The West" a C? For a first installment of a mini series I thought it was pretty good.

(Sorry but politics are boring- I'd rather talk about Labs) :)

Offline Toad

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2005, 10:55:38 AM »
Yeah. Nothing really new or unique there and so far the characterizations are bland, IMO. I'll give it another look next week, of course.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nash

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2005, 11:33:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Went off to watch "Into the West". I can only give the first episode a "C".

Now, I read all the diatribes.

Assume you folks are infallible and have it all 100% correct.


What did PNAC do that was illegal?

"a bunch of men who had stated openly their objectives with regard to Iraq,"

Illegal?

"then they got into positions to achieve those objectives,"

Illegal?

"and then the objectives were achieved"

Illegal?


Yeah, I know in your version they all decided to conquer Iraq with US troops back in 1973 or something. Understand.

What did they do that is legally actionable?

In short, does or does not our Constitution allow this? For example if MADD decided to reinstate prohibition and a bunch of women/men who had stated openly their objectives with regard to Prohibition, then got into positions to achieve those objectives, and then the objectives were achieved in a new Constitutional amendment, would that be illegal?

You have no problem with the process, correct? Do I understand that correctly?


You quote me a bunch times, and answer various things with the word "illegal?" as if I said illegal at any time.

I love the fact that you qualified it at one point by saying "legally actionable."

Then you try to blow it off by saying 1973, and then try to turn this into a constitutional argument.

Nowhere, in any of my posts, did I even come close to touching on any of those things.

Offline Toad

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2005, 11:36:39 AM »
Actually, I'm just trying to understand exactly where you are coming from.

Do you view forming the PNAC, moving into governmental positions and pushing PNAC polices as illegal for those who did so?

Simple question.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nash

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2005, 11:44:46 AM »
Only in as much as the policies were illegal.

So, basically, the answer is no.

It is not illegal for a group to have goals, get into power, then attempt to achieve those goals.

I don't get into the illegality of the war because I have no idea - that issue is far too murky for me.

Offline Nash

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2005, 11:56:55 AM »
I see what's happening now, though.

The definition of "conspiracy" was posted, and it was tied to illegality. Then you tacked it onto my posts as if I was talking about a conspiracy theory, and therefore asserting a claim of illegality.

Problem is, you're the one that brought up "conspiracy theory." I don't think it's that at all.

Offline Toad

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2005, 11:57:57 AM »
OK, progress.

We agree that forming PNAC, getting "their people" into government correctly (election, approval by Senate, appointement, etc.) and pursuing their policy goals is legal.

In fact, not only is it legal, it is they way this government is Constitutionally designed to work instead of overthrowing governments like they do in the banana republics.

So PNAC is not, in and of itself, an evil, sinister thing. In fact, it's how groups are supposed to accomplish their goals and desired changes. Much as "Democrats" or "Republicans" band together, determine "party platforms", run for office/appointments, and attempt to achieve their policy goals through legislation, etc., etc. .

Now, you say "the policies were illegal".

I admit to not following you here.

From the PNAC "Statement of Principles:

Quote
Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;


• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;


• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;


• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.




Which policy (-cies) were illegal?


« Last Edit: June 11, 2005, 12:07:14 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2005, 12:00:27 PM »
I don't understand your baseline opposition to PNAC. I'm trying to do that.

If you can succinctly state it in a paragraph or so, please do so.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Nash

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2005, 12:06:57 PM »
I don't say their policies were or are illegal at all!

I don't say it, because I don't know if they are or not.

That's a world court Geneva type thing... and I just don't go there.

The first part of your post I'm an absolute agreement with, however.

Offline Nash

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2005, 12:08:41 PM »
I don't have any disagreement with PNAC.

I might have disagreements about their goals, and/or the reasons and solutions for achieving them, but there is nothing essentially wrong with PNAC as an entity.

Offline Toad

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Nash....at Charon's request
« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2005, 12:11:26 PM »
Truly confused here Nash.

You agree PNAC is certainly within the law and in fact representative of how our Constitution is designed for people to band together and change the law, right?

I ask you:

"Do you view forming the PNAC, moving into governmental positions and pushing PNAC polices as illegal for those who did so?"

You reply

"Only in as much as the policies were illegal."

And next you say:

"I don't say their policies were or are illegal at all!

I don't say it, because I don't know if they are or not."

So... what then is your beef with PNAC?

You agree it's a legal/legitimate way to get things done. You say you don't know if their policies were or are illegal at all?

I realize I'm missing something in your presentation. Help me out here.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!