Author Topic: An interesting read regarding the middle class  (Read 1158 times)

Offline oboe

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An interesting read regarding the middle class
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2005, 10:33:05 AM »
I grew up with a working definition of socialism as high tax/high benefit state, which may not have been correct, but I think alot of people think of it that way.   I'm immediately dubious of the definitions you provide, Wotan, due to the use of the word 'scheme' - it definitely suggests a negative bias to me.   Here are some definitions I found -

communism A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.

socialism 1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.


I can see how its tempting to call them the same thing, or even branches of the same tree - they both are predicated on state ownership of capital (the means of production).    But doesn't communism go further and imply state ownership of goods as well?   Anyway, Marx and Lenin apparently say they are different.

I don't see at all how state ownership of capital is implied by "social norms that favor equality, strong labor unions, or progressive taxation."     To me, social norms that favor equality might as easily be demonstrated by a corporation board that is very tight fisted with executive pay.

Gunslinger: I thought the article was about more than just tax cuts for the rich.   I thought he was talking about a range of trends which are undermining the middle class - job security and healthcare costs among them.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2005, 10:40:00 AM by oboe »

Offline Eagler

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An interesting read regarding the middle class
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2005, 10:57:56 AM »
what is "middle class"?

salary range of what?

one or two cars? sq ft of house? number of tv's? cable? cell phone(s)?

I think the problem lies in the fact the middle class doesn't exist as in fact it is above what "middle" was 20/30+ years ago ...

what lazs said...

we are the fattest, materialistic poor ppl in the world :)
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Offline Krusher

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Re: An interesting read regarding the middle class
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2005, 11:46:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
Not long.   If you read it I hope you get something out of it.   Does a much better job of describing the issues that concern me than I ever could.  

Losing Our Country


Below are a few blurbs from a different New York Times study:


18 percent of people reported living in the lower class as children. But today, only 7 percent say they belong to that class. Another 44 percent say they had a working class childhood. However, only 35 percent say they are part of the working class today.

28 percent of people reported growing up middle class and just 8 percent said they had lived in an upper-middle-class home. Today, 42 percent of people say they belong to the middle class and 15 percent say they are part of the upper-middle class.

People were asked if they thought it was still possible to start out poor in this country, work hard, and become rich. The first time this question was asked in 1983, only 57 percent of respondents thought it was possible. In 1998, in the midst of exceptionally strong economic growth, 70 percent thought it was possible to get rich. Today, 80 percent say it is possible to become rich in America and a mere 19 percent say it is not.

People were also asked about what they thought their own personal prospects were for becoming rich. 11 percent said that they thought it was very likely. Another 34 percent thought it was somewhat likely. Only 22 percent thought they had no chance at all.

Offline Wotan

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An interesting read regarding the middle class
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2005, 12:26:00 PM »
Quote
grew up with a working definition of socialism as high tax/high benefit state, which may not have been correct, but I think allot of people think of it that way. I'm immediately dubious of the definitions you provide, Wotan, due to the use of the word 'scheme' - it definitely suggests a negative bias to me. Here are some definitions I found -

communism A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.

socialism 1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

I can see how its tempting to call them the same thing, or even branches of the same tree - they both are predicated on state ownership of capital (the means of production). But doesn't communism go further and imply state ownership of goods as well? Anyway, Marx and Lenin apparently say they are different.


It's all the same thing, the confiscation and redistribution of wealth by the state. Whether the dictator is a single entity or the mass it's still the same thing. The state steals from one group and gives to another.

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I don't see at all how state ownership of capital is implied by "social norms that favor equality, strong labor unions, or progressive taxation." To me, social norms that favor equality might as easily be demonstrated by a corporation board that is very tight fisted with executive pay.


What do you think 'progressive taxation' is? The taking of wealth from those who earned and giving to those who didn't.

What difference does it make to you whether a CEO makes 10 dollars or 10 billion? The amount of money people can earn in the US is not limited. The CEO making 10 billion dollars doesn't make one bit a difference to a guy making minimum wage. The CEO isn't taking money from the minimum wage worker.

If you think the government should tell the CEO that if they make more then XX dollars that they will take the rest then investment in this country will dry up.

Much of the middle class invests in these types of corporations. They expect a decent return on their investment. If the shareholders decide to pay a CEO billions of dollars to ensure they get a good return on their investment who are you to say that CEO doesn't deserve it?

It doesn't matter if you think you are a progressive rather then a liberal or a socialist rather then a communist because it all the same thing. The forced redistribution of wealth by the government.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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the liberals CREATE class warfare
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2005, 12:48:26 PM »
Once again, I quote Thomas Sowell, from his recent articles:
Liberals and Class, parts I, II, and III


The new trinity among liberal intellectuals is race, class and gender. Defining any of these terms is not easy, but it is also not difficult for liberals, because they seldom bother to define them at all.

 The oldest, and perhaps still the most compelling, of these concerns is class. In the vision of the left, we are born, live, and die in a particular class -- unless, of course, we give power to the left to change all that.
 
The latest statistics seized upon to support this class-ridden view of America and other Western societies show that most people in a given part of the income distribution are the children of other people born into that same part of the income distribution.

 Among men born in families in the bottom 25 percent of income earners only 32 percent end up in the top half of the income distribution. And among men born to families in the top 25 percent in income earners, only 34 percent end up down in the bottom half.

 How startling is that?

 More to the point, does this show that people are trapped in poverty or can coast through life on their parents' wealth? Does it show that "society" denies "access" to the poor?

 Could it just possibly show that the kind of values and behavior which lead a family to succeed or fail are also likely to be passed on to their children and lead them to succeed or fail as well? If so, how much can government policy -- liberal or conservative -- change that in any fundamental way?

 One recent story attempting to show that upward mobility is a "myth" in America today nevertheless noted in passing that many recent immigrants and their children have had "extraordinary upward mobility."

 If this is a class-ridden society denying "access" to upward mobility to those at the bottom, why is it that immigrants can come here at the bottom and then rise to the top?

 One obvious reason is that many poor immigrants come here with very different ambitions and values from that of poor Americans born into our welfare state and imbued with notions growing out of attitudes of dependency and resentments of other people's success.

 The fundamental reason that many people do not rise is not that class barriers prevent it but that they do not develop the skills, values and attitudes which cause people to rise.

 The liberal welfare state means they don't have to and liberal multiculturalism says they don't need to change their values because one culture is just as good as another. In other words, liberalism is not part of the solution, but part of the problem.

 Racism is supposed to put insuperable barriers in the path of non-whites anyway, so why knock yourself out trying?  This is another deadly message, especially for the young.

 But if immigrants from Korea or India, Vietnamese refugees, and others can come here and move right on up the ladder, despite not being white, why are black and white Americans at the bottom more likely to stay at the bottom?

 The same counterproductive and self-destructive attitudes toward education, work and ordinary civility found in many of America's ghettos can also be found in lower-class British communities. Anyone who doubts it should read British doctor Theodore Dalrymple's book "Life at the Bottom," about the white lower class communities in which he has worked.

 These chaotic and violence-prone communities in Britain do not have the excuse of racism or a legacy of slavery. What they do have in common with similar communities in the United States is a similar reliance on the welfare state and a similar set of intellectuals making excuses for their behavior and denouncing anyone who wants them to change their ways.

 The latest round of statistics emboldens more intellectuals to blame "society" for the failure of many people at the bottom to rise to the top. Realistically, if nearly a third of people born to families in the bottom quarter of income earners rise into the top half, that is not a bad record.

 If more were doing so in the past, that does not necessarily mean that "society" is holding them down more today. It may easily mean that the welfare state and liberal ideology both make it less necessary today for them to change their own behavior.

Someone once defined a social problem as a situation in which the real world differs from the theories of intellectuals. To the intelligentsia, it follows, as the night follows the day, that it is the real world that is wrong and which needs to change.

 Having imagined a world in which each individual has the same probability of success as anyone else, intellectuals have been shocked and outraged that the real world is nowhere close to that ideal. Vast amounts of time and resources have been devoted to trying to figure out what is stopping this ideal from being realized -- as if there was ever any reason to expect it to be.

 Despite all the words and numbers thrown around when discussing this situation, the terms used are so sloppy that it is hard even to know what the issues are, much less how to resolve them.

 Back in mid-May, both the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal had front-page stories about class differences and class mobility. The Times' article was the first in a long series that is still going on a month later. Both papers reached similar conclusions, based on a similar sloppy use of the word "mobility."

 The Times referred to "the chance of moving up from one class to another" and the Wall Street Journal referred to "the odds that a child born in poverty will climb to wealth." But the odds or probabilities against something happening are no measure of whether opportunity exists.

 Anyone who saw me play basketball and saw Michael Jordan play basketball when we were youngsters would have given odds of a zillion to one that he was more likely to make the NBA than I was. Does that mean I was denied opportunity or access, that there were barriers put up against me, that the playing field was not level?

 Or did it mean that Michael Jordan -- and virtually everyone else -- played basketball a lot better than I did?

 A huge literature on social mobility often pays little or no attention to the fact that different individuals and groups have different skills, desires, attitudes and numerous other factors, including luck. If mobility is defined as being free to move, then we can all have the same mobility, even if some end up moving faster than others and some of the others do not move at all.

 A car capable of going 100 miles an hour can sit in a garage all year long without moving. But that does not mean that it has no mobility.

 When each individual and each group trails the long shadow of their cultural history, they are unlikely even to want to do the same things, much less be willing to put out the same efforts and make the same sacrifices to achieve the same goals. Many are like the car that is sitting still in the garage, even though it is capable of going 100 mph.

 So long as each generation raises its own children, people from different backgrounds are going to be raised with different values and habits. Even in a world with zero barriers to upward mobility, they would move at different speeds and in different directions.

 If there is less upward movement today than in the past, that is by no means proof that external barriers are responsible. The welfare state and multiculturalism both reduce the incentives of the poor to adopt new ways of life that would help them rise up the economic ladder. The last thing the poor need is another dose of such counterproductive liberal medicine.

 Many comparisons of "classes" are in fact comparisons of people in different income brackets -- but most Americans move up from the lowest 20 percent to the highest 20 percent over time.

 Yet those who are obsessed with classes treat people in different brackets as if they were classes permanently stuck in those brackets.

 The New York Times series even makes a big deal about disparities in income and lifestyle between the rich and the super-rich. But it is hard to get worked up over the fact that some poor devil has to make do flying his old propeller-driven plane, while someone further up the income scale flies around a mile or two higher in his twin-engine luxury jet.

 Only if you have overdosed on disparities are you likely to wax indignant over things like that.


Part III of Thomas Sowell's recent articles, Liberals and Class, Parts I, II, and III to follow in the next post.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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An interesting read regarding the middle class
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2005, 12:51:07 PM »
Thomas Sowell, "Liberals and Class" Part III.

Sometimes it seems as if liberals have a genius for producing an unending stream of ideas that are counterproductive for the poor, whom they claim to be helping. Few of these notions are more counterproductive than the idea of "menial work" or "dead-end jobs."

 Think about it: Why do employers pay people to do "menial" work? Because the work has to be done. What useful purpose is served by stigmatizing work that someone is going to have to do anyway?

 Is emptying bed pans in a hospital menial work? What would happen if bed pans didn't get emptied? Let people stop emptying bed pans for a month and there would be bigger problems than if sociologists stopped working for a year.

 Having someone who can come into a home to clean and cook and do minor chores around the house can be a godsend to someone who is an invalid or who is suffering the infirmities of age -- and who does not want to be put into an institution. Someone who can be trusted to take care of small children is likewise a treasure.

 Many people who do these kinds of jobs do not have the education, skills or experience to do more complex kinds of work. Yet they can make a real contribution to society while earning money that keeps them off welfare.

 Many low-level jobs are called "dead-end jobs" by liberal intellectuals because these jobs have no promotions ladder. But it is superficial beyond words to say that this means that people in such jobs have no prospect of rising economically.

 Many people at all levels of society, including the richest, have at some point or other worked at jobs that had no promotions ladder, so-called "dead-end jobs." The founder of the NBC network began work as a teenager hawking newspapers on the streets. Billionaire Ross Perot began with a paper route.

 You don't get promoted from such jobs. You use the experience, initiative, and discipline that you develop in such work to move on to something else that may be wholly different. People who start out flipping hamburgers at McDonald's seldom stay there for a full year, much less for life.

 Dead-end jobs are the kinds of jobs I have had all my life. But, even though I started out delivering groceries in Harlem, I don't deliver groceries there any more. I moved on to other jobs -- most of which have not had any promotions ladders.

 My only official promotion in more than half a century of working was from associate professor to full professor at UCLA. But that was really just a pay increase, rather than a real promotion, because associate professors and full professors do the same work.

 Notions of menial jobs and dead-end jobs may be just shallow misconceptions among the intelligentsia but they are a deadly counterproductive message to the poor. Refusing to get on the bottom rung of the ladder usually means losing your chance to move up the ladder.

 Welfare can give you money but it cannot give you job experience that will move you ahead economically. Selling drugs on the streets can get you more money than welfare but it cannot give you experience that you can put on a job application.  And if you decide to sell drugs all your life, that life can be very short.

 Back around the time of the First World War, a young black man named Paul Williams studied architecture and then accepted a job as an office boy at an architectural firm. He agreed to work for no pay, though after he showed up the company decided to pay him something, after all.

 What they paid him would probably be dismissed today as "chump change." But what Paul Williams wanted from that company was knowledge and experience, more so than money.

 He went on to create his own architectural company, designing everything from churches and banks to mansions for movie stars -- and contributing to the design of the theme building at Los Angeles International Airport.

 The real chumps are those who refuse to start at the bottom for "chump change." Liberals who encourage such attitudes may think of themselves as friends of the poor but they do more harm than enemies.

I think the above articles say all that needs to be said on the matter, although Wotan said it pretty well himself.
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Offline Steve

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An interesting read regarding the middle class
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2005, 12:51:30 PM »
Quote
small family farms that had been handed down from one generation to the next


That's because you liberals want to tax inheritances.  LOL


Quote
Do you think this is true or false, Steve?


I can't see what is wrong w/ middle class but consider this:  I grew up middle class.  We had a family of 5 in  an 1100 sq ft home. My parents lived in that house for over 20 years. We had a one car garage, after we lived in the house for a few years.  Both my parents had to work full time in order to support us in this relatively meager existence.  Mom as a secretary and Dad as an electirican. I was happily ignorant that we spent our lives in a hand to mouth existence until:
 One year, Dad got hurt while doing some charity work(wiring a hangar) for his flying club.
Since it wasn't on the job,  the IBEW benefits didn't apply. His own flying club, of which he was President at the time, turned their collective backs on him and refused to help by admitting any liability(had they, their insurance would have covered things). He was laid up w/ multiple breaks(fell off scaffold that turned out to be very dangerous) for several months.  It got to the point where we had little to eat.  I was 17 at the time. I took all the money I had saved form afterschool/summer jobs and gave it to my parents in order to keep our home.  For months I gave my mom my paycheck.  We almost lost our home.  This is what middle class was like.  What's so great about that?
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Offline Krusher

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An interesting read regarding the middle class
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2005, 01:00:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Thomas Sowell, "Liberals and Class" Part III.

[/I]


Sowell is a smart man.

Offline Gunslinger

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An interesting read regarding the middle class
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2005, 01:26:06 PM »
Thanks for the read holden.  This was my favorite part:

Quote
Racism is supposed to put insuperable barriers in the path of non-whites anyway, so why knock yourself out trying? This is another deadly message, especially for the young.

But if immigrants from Korea or India, Vietnamese refugees, and others can come here and move right on up the ladder, despite not being white, why are black and white Americans at the bottom more likely to stay at the bottom?

The same counterproductive and self-destructive attitudes toward education, work and ordinary civility found in many of America's ghettos can also be found in lower-class British communities. Anyone who doubts it should read British doctor Theodore Dalrymple's book "Life at the Bottom," about the white lower class communities in which he has worked.

These chaotic and violence-prone communities in Britain do not have the excuse of racism or a legacy of slavery. What they do have in common with similar communities in the United States is a similar reliance on the welfare state and a similar set of intellectuals making excuses for their behavior and denouncing anyone who wants them to change their ways.


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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An interesting read regarding the middle class
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2005, 02:00:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Thanks for the read holden.  



Who the Hell is Holden?
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Offline oboe

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An interesting read regarding the middle class
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2005, 02:04:21 PM »
Truly sorry for what happened to your father, Steve.   From the situation you describe, though - it sounds to me like your family slipped from the middle class into the lower class for a while there.

You didn't answer my question, though.

Virgil, thanks for the article.   I agree with much of what he says.  Liberalism is responsible for some policies that failed pretty miserably.

Wotan, I define progressive taxation as a system of taxation whereby poorer people pay a smaller percentage of their income as taxes than do wealthy people, on the grounds that a larger percentage of the poor's income is consumed by basic necessities.

I don't believe taxation is necessarily redistribution of wealth.   When it is used to fund programs like welfare, yes, but not when it is used to pay for government functions like law enforcement, courts, roads, bridges, national defense, etc.   This would be true whether the tax code was regressive or progressive.

Quote
What difference does it make to you whether a CEO makes 10 dollars or 10 billion? The amount of money people can earn in the US is not limited. The CEO making 10 billion dollars doesn't make one bit a difference to a guy making minimum wage. The CEO isn't taking money from the minimum wage worker.

If you think the government should tell the CEO that if they make more then XX dollars that they will take the rest then investment in this country will dry up.


I have never suggested the government should set an upper limit on CEO pay.   That is ridiculous.   I do wish boards of directors would tie CEO pay more closely to actual company performance, as measured by more than just the stock price.    Its pretty sad to see a mismanaged company run into trouble and have to layoff thousands, while the resulting uptick in share price triggers a multihundred thousand bonus for the executives.   That compensation model seems just plain broken to me.

Offline lazs2

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An interesting read regarding the middle class
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2005, 02:15:09 PM »
perhaps I was not being simplistic enough..  My point is... define middle class..

Are we more able to afford a refrigerator now than 30 years ago when... a refrigerator was in every home anyway?

How bout a radio or a TV or a gallon of milk?  How bout a 2000 square foot house?   What kind of middle class family lived in a 2000 square foot house with two new cars?

And... did all these advancements come from the enterprise of poor or even middle class Americans?  Did strong unions give us cheaper better cars and houses?

Socialism and communism are indeed intrechangeble except that in one... the government controls all means of manufature... in the other government allows private ownership but confiscates all the wealth and redistributes it.   Works out the same... government controls everything and those who produce are punished and those who do not produce are rewarded.

The term "progressive" is a dead giveaway that a socialist or commie is speaking by the way.

lazs

Offline oboe

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An interesting read regarding the middle class
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2005, 02:38:48 PM »
I think we'd have more success defining middle class in terms less specific than whether or not they can buy a gallon of milk or a refirgerator, one car or two, etc.

You could probably look at a distribution of income and define it statistically.    Or a statistician could anyway.    Probably has something to do with being one or two standard deviations on either side of the median annual income.

A rule of thumb I made up is this:

Lower class can barely afford the necessities.

Middle class can afford necessities and some luxuries, but has to pick and choose because they can't afford everything.    

Upper class could afford every luxury the middle class is dreaming of.

So Progressive taxation is communism, huh?

Offline Wotan

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An interesting read regarding the middle class
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2005, 02:40:35 PM »
Quote
Wotan, I define progressive taxation as a system of taxation whereby poorer people pay a smaller percentage of their income as taxes than do wealthy people, on the grounds that a larger percentage of the poor's income is consumed by basic necessities.


That already happens under the current system.

Even so its still redistributing wealth.

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I don't believe taxation is necessarily redistribution of wealth. When it is used to fund programs like welfare, yes, but not when it is used to pay for government functions like law enforcement, courts, roads, bridges, national defense, etc. This would be true whether the tax code was regressive or progressive.


Of course it is redistribution of wealth. When you take money from one segment of society and give to another that is redistributing wealth. Whether you do it with a direct check or social program it is still the same thing.

Law enforcement, court, roads, bridges can be paid for through bonds or user fees.

National defense is the only thing that the Federal Government need taxes for but even then there are other ways to pay for it.

Social spending is socialism and the redistribution of wealth.

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I have never suggested the government should set an upper limit on CEO pay.


You didn't directly but you did say:

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To me, social norms that favor equality might as easily be demonstrated by a corporation board that is very tight fisted with executive pay.


Corporations pay their managers what they feel they are worth. It's not up to you to decide how corporations pay their managers. How do you achieve your idea of 'equality' then? Unless you use the force of the Government market forces will take over. CEOs that earn good money for their shareholders will be rewarded. They have value, more so then the guy driving around a fork lift or in the production line. All employees aren't 'equal'.

Most layoffs aren't a result of mismanagement. It's quite the opposite in that good managers will cut costs like labor and other things to make the corporation competitive and attractive to investors.

Offline lazs2

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An interesting read regarding the middle class
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2005, 02:43:26 PM »
My point is that there is a larger group of people today that not only have the necessities but are able to afford amounts of luxury that could only be dreamed about by the "middle class" decades ago..  Often the poorest amoung us have more luxury items than the middle class of the past.

I believe that a lot of that has to do with bussiness getting stronger and getting some tax relief.   I do not believe that any redistribvution of wealth that the government has done has been anthing but a burden for the middle class...  SS for instance costs more and more with less of a real benifiet every year.

lazs