Author Topic: House Votes To Curb Patriot Act  (Read 1215 times)

Offline JB88

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« on: June 15, 2005, 10:34:53 PM »
washingtonpost.com
House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
38 Republicans Join Liberal Democrats

By Mike Allen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, June 16, 2005; A01

The House handed President Bush the first defeat in his effort to preserve the broad powers of the USA Patriot Act, voting yesterday to curtail the FBI's ability to seize library, bookstore and hotel records for terrorism investigations.

Bush has threatened to veto any measure that weakens those powers. The surprise 238 to 187 rebuke to the White House was produced when a handful of conservative Republicans, worried about government intrusion, joined with liberal Democrats who are concerned about personal privacy.

One provision of the Patriot Act makes it possible for the FBI to obtain a wide variety of personal records about a suspected terrorist -- including library transactions -- with an order from a secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, where the government must meet a lower threshold of proof than in criminal courts.

Under the House change, officials would have to get search warrants from a judge or subpoenas from a grand jury to seize records about a suspect's reading habits.

Some libraries have said they are disposing of patrons' records more quickly because of the provision, which opponents view as a license for fishing expeditions.

House Administration Committee Chairman Robert W. Ney (Ohio), one of three House Republicans who opposed the Patriot Act when it was enacted in 2001, voted yesterday to curtail agents' power to seize the records.

"Everybody's against terrorism, but there has to be reason in the way that we fight it," Ney said. "The government doesn't need to be sifting through library records. I talked to my libraries, and they felt very strongly about this."

The Justice Department said in a letter to Congress this week that the provision has been used only 35 times and has never been used to obtain bookstore, library, medical or gun-sale records. It has been used to obtain records of hotel stays, driver's licenses, apartment leases and credit cards, the letter said.

"Bookstores and libraries should not be carved out as safe havens for terrorists and spies, who have, in fact, used public libraries to do research and communicate with their co-conspirators," Assistant Attorney General William E. Moschella wrote in the letter.

The vote -- on an amendment to a huge bill covering appropriations for science as well as the departments of Justice, State and Commerce -- came as Bush is traveling the country to build support for reauthorizing 15 provisions of the Patriot Act that are scheduled to expire at year's end.

House Republican leadership aides said they plan to have the provision removed later this summer when a conference committee meets to work out differences between the House and Senate versions of the bill. "The administration has threatened to veto the bill over this extraneous rider, and there are too many important initiatives in the bill for that to happen," said Appropriations Committee spokesman John Scofield.

Last year, the House leadership barely staved off the amendment with a 210 to 210 tie, engineered only by holding the vote open to pressure some Republicans to switch their votes.

Democrats contend that the reversal was the first sign of growing wariness about some of the more intrusive elements of the Patriot Act, which was swiftly passed just weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.), a leader in the drive to curtail the act's reach, said in an interview that the original measure had passed "in an atmosphere of panic" and that a wide spectrum of lawmakers is beginning to conclude it went too far.

"If some terrorist checks out a book about how to make an atomic bomb, that might be legitimate for the government to know, and they can get a search warrant or a subpoena the way we've done it throughout American history," Nadler said. "Otherwise, what you're reading is none of the government's business."

House Republican leaders are not accustomed to losing, and they did not hide their anger about the result. One aide to a House leader referred to the victorious coalition as "the crazies on the left and the crazies on the right, meeting in the middle."

Justice Department spokesman Kevin Madden issued a statement reiterating the administration's insistence that the provision is vital. The statement said the section "provides national security investigators with an important tool for investigating and intercepting terrorism while at the same time establishing robust safeguards to protect law-abiding Americans."

The amendment was sponsored by Rep. Bernard Sanders (Vt.), a socialist who is the chamber's lone independent. He said the measure "simply restores the checks and balances that protect innocent Americans under the Constitution."
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Offline ASTAC

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2005, 10:40:44 PM »
well at least the parties worked together a little.
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Offline DREDIOCK

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2005, 01:10:59 AM »
Well thats a step in the right direction.

Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.), a leader in the drive to curtail the act's reach, said in an interview that the original measure had passed "in an atmosphere of panic" and that a wide spectrum of lawmakers is beginning to conclude it went too far.

Ya.

Just enforce the laws we already have in place and we can probably do away with a very large chunk of this abomination
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Offline StarOfAfrica2

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2005, 03:20:01 AM »
Amen.

Offline Momus--

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2005, 05:50:59 AM »
How many Al-Qaeda members, sleeper cells or such like have been caught in the US since the Patriot Act was enacted?

Offline DREDIOCK

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2005, 07:30:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Momus--
How many Al-Qaeda members, sleeper cells or such like have been caught in the US since the Patriot Act was enacted?


Dunno exactly but I know how many planes went down or into buildings only because already existing laws in place werent enforced.

4

Wouldnt have even needed the Patriot ack to prevent it.
All that was needed was enforcement of laws already in place.
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Offline lazs2

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2005, 08:02:16 AM »
allways best to limit the powers of government.

lazs

Offline Maverick

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2005, 10:27:50 AM »
Amen to Laz on this one.
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Offline Sandman

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2005, 10:35:09 AM »
If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.
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Offline Toad

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2005, 10:44:27 AM »
The important thing is that it IS being reviewed and revisited.

Right after 9/11, just like after Pearl, the government was basically caught with its collective trousers down and there were a lot of "twitch" reactions while trying to cover every imaginable potential threat. Everything was "top priority", "immediate", "gotta have it".

OK, they got a lot of leeway because of the situation.

Now things have progressed, smoke has cleared and the Patriot Act is getting its review. The involved agencies should have to justify every single line of it.

Because as Laz said, it's always best to limit the government's powers. Otherwise, they start to think we work for it.
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Offline Sox62

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2005, 10:44:45 AM »
Agreed Lazs.

Offline SirLoin

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2005, 10:49:21 AM »
Now they have to get search warrants...Them terrorists will probably all get away now.
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Offline Karnak

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2005, 10:51:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
allways best to limit the powers of government.

lazs

You got that right, no doubts.

What is odd is that very, very few people I ever talked to, regardless of their personal politics, liked, approved of or wanted the Patriot Act.  It seemed to be genuinly unpopular with Americans, not just with Liberal Americans or Conservative Americans, but rather Americans in general.

I wonder if that is because so much of my communication is with people on the internet.  I suspect that internet users tend to be Libertarian Liberals and Libertarian Conservatives more often than in the general populace.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 10:55:04 AM by Karnak »
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Offline Ripsnort

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2005, 10:52:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
The important thing is that it IS being reviewed and revisited.

Right after 9/11, just like after Pearl, the government was basically caught with its collective trousers down and there were a lot of "twitch" reactions while trying to cover every imaginable potential threat. Everything was "top priority", "immediate", "gotta have it".

OK, they got a lot of leeway because of the situation.

Now things have progressed, smoke has cleared and the Patriot Act is getting its review. The involved agencies should have to justify every single line of it.

Because as Laz said, it's always best to limit the government's powers. Otherwise, they start to think we work for it.
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Offline Ripsnort

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House Votes To Curb Patriot Act
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2005, 10:55:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Momus--
How many Al-Qaeda members, sleeper cells or such like have been caught in the US since the Patriot Act was enacted?

Not sure, but here are a couple of news stories:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/08/terror/main700284.shtml

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/03/1046540117608.html?oneclick=true