Winning the war

[Steve]

That may very well be true, but that's not what people remember.

Ummm, maybe in your part of the world.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Ze Günterman!
That's just it. I'm not entering through the window. I'm still using the front door. It may be impolite, but then I don't particularly feel I owe HTC any favours considering their treatment of me. If I'm to be condemned for trolling at least I'm going to have the pleasure of trolling a little first.

It won't really make you feel better.

IMO the only cure is some vacation from the OC ,then you can ask to came back and show you are not what you are showing currently.

It don't change my perception of you yet it's just that when I see a friend making something I think wrong, I warn him.
But you are the one controlling your destiny no one else can.

[straffo]

Where did you got your quote from Steve ?

eeekkk look like I can to a search

please discard this post.

[straffo]

Perhaps have you been too far ?

I'm far from sharing the opinion of Hangtime or Steve to name a few and expressed sometime violently my opposition to their view.
But I'm still here ...

So ?

What ending like a martyr will change ?

[eagl]

Gunterman,

I won't compare the current SAM systems against current USAF systems because I CAN'T.  They're current systems and any worthwhile comparison is by definition classified.  The only thing I'll say is that I have some hope of survival even though I'm flying the modern equivalent of the 10 meter aluminum sphere.  If you don't know what that means, then you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Nice try though.

[storch]

Originally posted by eagl
Motivations and intelligence aside, as a guy "on the front lines" the important part of this story is that the guy was nabbed due to civilian intervention.  There IS an upside to this whole Iraq mess, and it is encouraging as hell to see the Iraqi population decide to take charge of their own destiny.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/06/16/iraq.main/index.html

The Iraqis trusted us after the first Persian Gulf War, and they got burned badly when we pulled out before the job was finished.  The mere fact that they trust us enough to turn in the bad guys living in their neighborhoods means that we've "turned the corner" and the Iraqi people believe in the message we brought with us when we invaded.  The important part in any revolution is when the average Joe internalizes the dream and actually ACTS on his dreams.  I personally think we're seeing this in action, even though the media rarely reports on the results of this interaction.  Occupation is a tough business no matter what the motivation, but the civilian populace ratting on the insurgency to the occupation forces or the local government is a great sign that things are moving in the right direction.

There will always be "easy" targets for the insurgents to build their casualty lists, and that's why they're called terrorists.  They're losing the war so they're inflicting what losses they can on whoever they can manage to kill.  They're turning the population against themselves, while US troops are busily rebuilding stuff and giving kids the candy from their MREs.  If we can keep the growing Iraqi security forces from repeating the gross excesses of past adminstrations, I think the whole situation will go down in history as a "win".

I don't expect anyone else to agree with me, but as a student of military history I've learned that in every single conflict the US has ever been invoved in, there has been a vocal minority that has shouted doom and gloom up to the end.  Tens of thousands of dead GIs had little immediate, measurable impact in Vietnam, but 30 years later an objective historical review shows that Vietnam had a measurable impact in shortening the cold war and isolating the spread of communism.  Will history show what our investment in blood and resources in the middle east actually means?  I think it will, and I think that after all the mistakes and successes are tallied we'll see that we have altered the regional makeup for the better.

great post eagl.  I agree with you and it is good to think that perhaps our grandkids won't need to be garrisoning Iraq.

[Torque]

Originally posted by eagl
It's clear that a lot of people still don't see the forest, for the trees.

February 16, 1945

"DEAR MR. PRESIDENT:

Our VIETNAM people, as early as 1941, stood by the Allies' side and fought against the Japanese and their associates, the French colonialists.

From 1941 to 1945 we fought bitterly, sustained by the patriotism, of our fellow-countrymen and by the promises made by the Allies at YALTA, SAN FRANCISCO and POTSDAM.

When the Japanese were defeated in August 1945, the whole Vietnam territory was united under a Provisional Republican Government, which immediately set out to work. In five months, peace and order were restored, a democratic republic was established on legal bases, and adequate help was given to the Allies in the carrying out of their disarmament mission.

But the French Colonialists, who betrayed in wartime both the Allies and the Vietnamese, have come back, and are waging on us a murderous and pitiless war in order reestablish their domination. Their invasion has extended to South Vietnam and is menacing us in North Vietnam. It would take volumes to give even an abbreviated report of the crisis and assassinations they are committing everyday in this fighting area.

This aggression is contrary to all principles of international law and the pledge made by the Allies during World War II. It is a challenge to the noble attitude shown before, during, and after the war by the United States Government and People. It violently contrasts with the firm stand you have taken in your twelve point declaration, and with the idealistic loftiness and generosity expressed by your delegates to the United Nations Assembly, MM. BYRNES, STETTINIUS, AND J.F. DULLES.

The French aggression on a peace-loving people is a direct menace to world security. It implies the complicity, or at least the connivance of the Great Democracies. The United Nations ought to keep their words. They ought to interfere to stop this unjust war, and to show that they mean to carry out in peacetime the principles for which they fought in wartime.

Our Vietnamese people, after so many years of spoliation and devastation, is just beginning its building-up work. It needs security and freedom, first to achieve internal prosperity and welfare, and later to bring its small contribution to world-reconstruction.

These security and freedom can only be guaranteed by our independence from any colonial power, and our free cooperation with all other powers. It is with this firm conviction that we request of the United Sates as guardians and champions of World Justice to take a decisive step in support of our independence.

What we ask has been graciously granted to the Philippines. Like the Philippines our goal is full independence and full cooperation with the UNITED STATES. We will do our best to make this independence and cooperation profitable to the whole world.

I am, Dear Mr. PRESIDENT,

Respectfully Yours,

Ho Chi Minh"

[bustr]

Am I missing something? Was a post deleted between Laz's and Hangtime's up top just before mine? And Gsholz a banned person? This makes the conversation a bit surreal and incoherant.......OK....life goes on...scratches head.......

[Toad]

I think somebody found one of Jack Black's leftover cans of VaPOOriser.

[Pongo]

I think Vietnam was a horrible brutal mistake for many and a horrible brutal atrocity for some. And if the intent was to win the cold war it was the lamest tactic to accomplish that end that could have been devised.

I think Iraq is a dishonest missguided half failed act of aggression that if it was intended to win the war on terror is the lamest tactic to accomplish that end that could have been devised.

The millions of south east asians and the 100s of thousands of Iraqis that have died as a result of these failed strategies and dishonest intelligence and dimplomacy by the United States deserved far better from the beacon of democrocy and freedom in the world.

That is my honest opinion on both issues.
I guess I see it differntly then Eagl. I guess we read different books or something.

can I be moderator now?

[WMLute]

Originally posted by Torque
February 16, 1945

"DEAR MR. PRESIDENT:...(edited for length)

I am, Dear Mr. PRESIDENT,

Respectfully Yours,

Ho Chi Minh"

Most excellent point.  Ho Chi Minh DID approach the U.S. before going with Mao in China.  We sorta screwed the proverbial pooch on that one.

BUT as far as if the U.S. WON the war, well, it wasn't a war.  It was a Police Action.  We never declared war on V.N.  Can't loose a war you never started.  We went in, and then left.  I for one regret our letting down the V.N people both before (see above) and then by allowing pressure from home to make us withdraw our troops.

KINDA like what is going on now with Iraq.  I swear, I don't think 1/2 the U.S. population understands concepts of "resolve" and "finishing what you start".  Unfort., too many people have 2 min attention spans in this country.  I am quite happy that we have a commander in chief who will follow through with what he started.  (KUDOS Mr. Bush)

I agree whole heartedly with the first post of this thread.  Was a good read.

[Toad]

Pongo, did you ever read Sorley's "A Better War"?

I'd be interested in your opinion; I'm sure it would be different than mine but that's why I'm interested.

I'll send my copy to the frozen north if you like.

[Toad]

Ho actually sent eight letters to Harry Truman in 1945 and 1946 appealing for American aid, all ignored by Harry.

Interesting (and long) treatment here . Haven't read it all myself yet. I went looking for why Truman didn't even answer Ho.

Pretty interesting reading so far. Some stuff I didn't know, for sure. Or had read and forgotten. Four sections (pages) of it.

[Toad]

Don't feed the GSCHOLZ. Thank you.

[Pongo]

I didnt Toad and I should.
I will look for it here.