Author Topic: Winning the war  (Read 1051 times)

Offline eagl

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Winning the war
« on: June 16, 2005, 02:08:57 PM »
Motivations and intelligence aside, as a guy "on the front lines" the important part of this story is that the guy was nabbed due to civilian intervention.  There IS an upside to this whole Iraq mess, and it is encouraging as hell to see the Iraqi population decide to take charge of their own destiny.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/06/16/iraq.main/index.html

The Iraqis trusted us after the first Persian Gulf War, and they got burned badly when we pulled out before the job was finished.  The mere fact that they trust us enough to turn in the bad guys living in their neighborhoods means that we've "turned the corner" and the Iraqi people believe in the message we brought with us when we invaded.  The important part in any revolution is when the average Joe internalizes the dream and actually ACTS on his dreams.  I personally think we're seeing this in action, even though the media rarely reports on the results of this interaction.  Occupation is a tough business no matter what the motivation, but the civilian populace ratting on the insurgency to the occupation forces or the local government is a great sign that things are moving in the right direction.

There will always be "easy" targets for the insurgents to build their casualty lists, and that's why they're called terrorists.  They're losing the war so they're inflicting what losses they can on whoever they can manage to kill.  They're turning the population against themselves, while US troops are busily rebuilding stuff and giving kids the candy from their MREs.  If we can keep the growing Iraqi security forces from repeating the gross excesses of past adminstrations, I think the whole situation will go down in history as a "win".

I don't expect anyone else to agree with me, but as a student of military history I've learned that in every single conflict the US has ever been invoved in, there has been a vocal minority that has shouted doom and gloom up to the end.  Tens of thousands of dead GIs had little immediate, measurable impact in Vietnam, but 30 years later an objective historical review shows that Vietnam had a measurable impact in shortening the cold war and isolating the spread of communism.  Will history show what our investment in blood and resources in the middle east actually means?  I think it will, and I think that after all the mistakes and successes are tallied we'll see that we have altered the regional makeup for the better.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline lazs2

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Winning the war
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2005, 02:18:52 PM »
I would say yes.  

This is a job that had to be done sooner or later.  Was this the exact ritght time in history to do it?   who freekin knows?

lazs

Offline Hangtime

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Winning the war
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2005, 03:26:18 PM »
Enh?

I beg ta differ.. vietnam was many things; but it sure was NOT what you imply it is.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline bustr

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Winning the war
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2005, 03:27:48 PM »
We were never allowed to fight Vietnam as total war where we destroy all their infrastructure and target the civillian population to destroy their will to fight, along with blockading all supplies and releif routes into the country. Our government gave Vietnam away, our militairy could not loose what they were never allowed to fight in the first place.

We almost wiped out the VC army in the Tet offensive. But crap like Hanoi Jane and our home grown antiwar movement kept N. Vietnam from throwing in the towel. My old man retired as a Russin linguist and militairy analyst from NSA. The big joke after the fall of communist Russia was how cheap it was for Moscow to win the Vietnam war by funding the ideot children in the american antiwar groups. North Vietnam did not win the war. We gave it away.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Thrawn

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Winning the war
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2005, 03:46:40 PM »
"BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The U.S. military on Thursday reported the capture of a man described as al Qaeda's leader in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul."


Described by who?

Offline Thrawn

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Winning the war
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2005, 04:00:58 PM »
Banned yet again Gsholtz?

Offline Hangtime

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Winning the war
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2005, 04:17:47 PM »
whups.. disregard the last. New rules. Musn't feed the trolls.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Thrawn

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Winning the war
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2005, 04:19:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ze Günterman!
Constantly.


Than why don't you take the hint?  This board is private property, it's as bad as trespassing.

Offline Schaden

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Winning the war
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2005, 04:27:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Absolutely. I must admit I'm a bit curious as to the source or basis for your premise tho.


Doesn't look look like a famous victory to me...


Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2005, 04:27:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ze Günterman!
Naw, it aint.



Yes it is.  HTC spends their money to maintain these boards, and for some reason you believe you have the right to constantly break thier rules.  You're putting your pathelogical need to troll this board above the desires of the people that pay thier hard earned cash to have it here.  It's exactly like tresspassing.

Offline Hangtime

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Winning the war
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2005, 04:32:18 PM »
Freeze him Thrawn. No replys, just don't answer the guy's posts on ANY level.

Yer feeding the troll.

The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline eagl

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Winning the war
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2005, 04:34:14 PM »
It's clear that a lot of people still don't see the forest, for the trees.

The Vietnam war was a battle in a larger war.  That's important to remember.

Who was it that said it's no good to win the battle if the war is lost?  Sun Tzu?  I'm not sure anyone was able to really consciously understand this, but Regan was the one who put the cold war to bed and he was only able to do so because of the groundwork that had been laid during the Vietnam war.

Look at it this way - in the Vietnam war, the US spent an enormous amount of money and lives into developing offensive tools.  The first laser guide bombs and the SA-2 SAM are awesome examples.  It wasn't until the first gulf war until these vietnam war innovations were finally put up against each other, with a victor crowned.  In the end, the culmination of US offensive warfare developments completely dominated the defensive innovations of the Soviet Union.  In the gulf war, a single F-15E was downed by an SA-2, a defensive weapon that was introduced to great effect in Vietnam and virtually un-improved through the 1990s.  The scale of technological development made it clear that the Western model of progress could out-strip the soviet/communist model in the long term.  The Iraqis had the hands-down best air defense system money could buy, second only to the indegenous systems fielded by the Chinese and the Soviets themselves.  And we took it down in about one week with a handful of losses.

That's the victory of Vietnam - we set the stage for the cold war conflict, and the best of the West, both in economic terms (Germany reunification) and military terms (Gulf war 1) came out in clear favor of western doctrine.  Vietnam was no more than a single battle in the cold war and as tragic as it was, our withdrawl there was a tactical defeat but a strategic victory.  It bled resources from our opponent that could not be recovered, and it led our opponent down a path of defensive military innovation that would ultimately be surpassed by our economic and military progress.

Right or wrong, that's what happened.  And it's happening again, with the same crowd of nay-sayers shouting how bad we are for caring enough to act with decisive power.  Look at the headlines from 3 years ago, check out the headlines from a month after the 9/11 attacks, and check the headlines from the no-kidding front lines in Iraq.  Then take a guess as to what history will say about all this.  My guess is that history will say the proximate cause for the war was flawed, but the background reasoning was sound and the results will speak for themselves.  If only more Americans would work FOR something instead of AGAINST every damn thing.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Thrawn

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Winning the war
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2005, 04:35:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ze Günterman!
Exactly what have I cost HTC? What sort of lock/gate/security am I circumventing if I'm trespassing?

Nothing.



Money, specifically Skuzzy's time which costs money.  That being said, I am going to take Hang's advice and not have it cost anymore of my time.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2005, 04:36:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ze Günterman!
Exactly what have I cost HTC? What sort of lock/gate/security am I circumventing if I'm trespassing?

Nothing.

Nothing certainly.

We are the guest of HTC if HTC don't want us they don't have to justify anything it's their house.

I find pretty questionnable your attitude here if they closed the door you don't have to enter throught the window,it's simply incorrect and unpolite.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2005, 04:39:52 PM »
No Shaden. This is Gsholz. He's Banned. he's in violation of the User Agreement.

Further, this subject (vietnam) has been thorougly hashed out with this very same guy no less than 10 times. Has nothing to do with his political stance, has everything to do with pissing on the community.

Yah wanna feed the troll, go ahead.. I don't; and won't.

Yahy wanna talk politics, religion, hate groups or internationalisim, and yer a legit memeber of the community, I'd love to have a rational discussion with yah on this or any other subject.

But I refuse to feed this illegitimate troll. (ze gunterman; aka Gsholz)

Cheers!
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.