The end of Palestine?

[Staga]

Hang is having some good ideas IMHO; Build a 6 meter high concrete wall between Israel and Lebanon.
I wonder if blueprints of wall of Berlin are still somewhere there?

Next ask Mercedes-Chrysler to build a factory in Lebanon and I might be able to buy a Mercedes and Palestinians could have some work to do = No time to throw stones  

[Staga]

DMF/Todd/Leviathan what do you expect to see when Israel's tanks rolled to Lebanon?

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying:


This is why terrorism is ultimately so freaking moronic.  Does Hamas expect that Israel's reaction to bombing buses will be anything less than a massive retaliation?  Did Bin Laden actually expect that ramming some jets into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon would actually cause America to withdraw from the Middle East in fear?  

so you must be disgusted that israel chose to rocket palestinians during the post sep 11th cease-fire too?

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Staga:
Hang is having some good ideas IMHO; Build a 6 meter high concrete wall between Israel and Lebanon.
I wonder if blueprints of wall of Berlin are still somewhere there?

Next ask Mercedes-Chrysler to build a factory in Lebanon and I might be able to buy a Mercedes and Palestinians could have some work to do = No time to throw stones  

why in the heck do you think they (the terrorists) would want to hold a job? Why report to a factory when they'd get more enjoyment out of blowing it up, causing further death, destruction & misery which it is all they, the wacko terrorists are stiving for, the only thing that they seem to think gives their lousy lives purpose..

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by Hangtime:
I can't see a solution thats mutually palatable to any of the three sides... the arab world, the palestinians or the israeli's.

My suggestion... since the USA has the most to lose long term from instability there, it's time to take hard action. Lets take custody of the Palistinian Authoritys Hammas prisoners (arafat has arrested more than 100 since sunday) and try them by tribunal.

Next, we establish and control the borders ourselves between Palestine and Israel, we evict jewish settlers in violation of the camp david accords and explain to Israel that over border incursions by it's armed forces for ANY reason is not acceptable.

Then we take over the public education of the Palestinians, (hate schools) oversee their Police, eliminate Hammas and the other extrimist groups and try and keep the two sides from getting at each other for 20 years or so.

We'll lose troops, we'll be hated and reviled, but 11 million palestinians and 23 million jews might just live long enuff to see another generation live in peace there.

(flame suit on)

Your solution only illustrates why the Hamas, Hizballah and the such hate Isreal, and are anti-western (especially the US). Your ideas are almost solely pro-Isreali, and return the Palestinians to a ghetto administered this time by the US.

Areas of Isreal are already a total police state to Palestinians, especially areas in and around the occupied territories.
Handing over 'suspected' prisoners for tribunal in the United States will only reinforce the view already rampant in the territories that the US is a servant of Isreal.

Children are not taught hate at schools. They don't need to, because the hate is taught by the Isreali army on the streets.
When the stone throwers are shot by Isreali soldiers,or their family thrown out of thier ancestral homes to make way for settlers, or an isreali army observation post.

Neither will the Isreali state allow the wholesale removal of their settlers from the occupied territories, as it is naive to think the US adminstration will even attempt to.
The US will never admonish or deny Isreal support, not while american-jewish lobbyists still manage to wring some holocaust sympathy.

This is why these people hate the US as much as they do Isreal because only the US has the power to stop Isreal, who palestinians consider have been oppressing and terrorising them for decades. But the US won't, thereby literally supporting this terrorism against the people.

And this is why groups like Hamas, and Hizballah still will have the help and support of the Palestinians and why the intifada and killing will probably never end.

 Tronsky

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: -tronski- ]

[mrfish]

i agree with you 100% tronski about how hate is created, etc, but i have to say you are dead wrong about hangtime.

in fact he's one of the few voices around here that isnt just mimicking the slop driveled on us by the press every night.

his plan isnt beyond criticsim but you gotta give him credit for at  least being a 'bad, troublemaker american' and using his brain.

[Gunthr]

-tronski-, what would you propose as a solution?

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Staga:
DMF/Todd/Leviathan what do you expect to see when Israel's tanks rolled to Lebanon?

From 1949 through the 1970s, Lebanon was used as a staging area for attacks on Israel by the PLO.  Syria, a longtime militant foe of Israel, also wielded strong influence in Lebanon.

Chicken or egg?  It seems to me that Israel rolling tanks into Lebanon and laying siege to Beirut was a disproportionate response to a real problem.  By committing acts of terrorism from Lebanon, the PLO gave Israeli hardliners the gumption to invade and occupy in the name of national security.

See what I mean?  Extremism begets extremism.  Terrorists attacks only serve to strengthen Israeli resolve -- and disproportionate Israeli responses keep feeding the terrorist mindset.  Obviously, whatever both sides are doing right now isn't working.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by mrfish:
so you must be disgusted that israel chose to rocket palestinians during the post sep 11th cease-fire too?

Yes, actually.  You seem to have read my message as some sort of pro-Israeli tirade when it's nothing of the sort.

But do you honestly think that some moron laden with TNT who blows up himself and a dozen people on a bus will change things for the Palestinians?  Terrorism is a dead end... a bloody dead end.  If anything, the Hamas attacks last weekend finally convinced even the Israeli doves that Arafat either was unwilling or unable to push for peace.

The result?  More and wider support among Israelis for military action.  If Palestinian militants somehow hope to force a final showdown over the fate of Israel and Palestine by their actions, I hate to break it to them... Israel would win.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Hangtime]

A solution in the Middle East and a Popularity Contest are mutually exclusive propositions..

Given.. that only the US is in a position to curb excesses by Israel

Given.. that only the US is in a position to propose and establish a Palestinian State, recognised by the UN.

So.. nobody over there will be happy with Israel eradicating 20 years of progress towards peace... any more than they are happy about Hamas or Hizbollah turning young kids into martyrs and israli's into corpses.

If the USA moves in, establishes a DMZ and border crossings, establishes and recognizes a paletinian state, establishes a moderate government, revamps education and starts to work on the poverty AND kicks the israli's outta the contested territories and forcibly (if necessary) institutes a cease-fire then MAYBE there will be a peace of sorts.

It stinks.. I know. I can't think of anything else that stinks less.  

[miko2d]

Originally posted by Hangtime:
Clearly, Arafat must deliver the Hamas leaders to Israel or be exiled or assasinated himself.

 This should really be worded like that: "Arafat must deliver the Hamas leaders to Israel and be assasinated by Hamas himself"[/i]
 Who do you think he fears more - civilized and polite Israelis with their "demonstration" strikes or murderous bastards breathing down his neck who would waste him in no time?

...we evict jewish settlers in violation of the camp david accords...
 Better yet, lallow them stay there and withdraw protection from them. While I support Israel in general, there are quite a few of hardline relgious fundamentalists in Israel that it will be much better off witout.

 miko

[qts]

There will be war, and soon. Israel will evict the Palestinians from the West Bank, and possibly Gaza (they might retake the Sinai peninsula too, simply to have a smaller land border), and then there will be relative peace.

[Buzzbait]

S!

If anyone thinks that destroying the Palestinian Authority and ejecting or killing Arafat is going to solve the problems of the Middle East, they are sadly mistaken.

Arafat is not the most savoury of characters, but he has tried.  However, he no longer commands the situation in Palestinian areas, and the militants no longer obey him.  

The reason he no longer has authority can be laid at the doorstep of Israel and Sharon in particular.  Israel continues to encourage settlement in areas clearly laid aside in the Oslo agreements as Palestinian territory, and Sharon continues to practice his own brand of terror.  Arafat is powerless to do anything, and his people refuse to sit still and be bombed and shelled and shot by Israelis.  So they have taken to following the flags of extremists and terrorists.  In their minds, the middle ground is no longer a viable option when Israeli .50 cals are coming through their Apartment blocks walls at night, and Gunships are firing rockets at crowded market places.

Sharon has proved in the past that he is not to be trusted with the Palestinian people`s welfare, (look at Shatila Refugee camp incident in the 1982 Lebanon invasion where 5,000 Palestinians were massacred by Lebanese Christians under the orders of the Israeli Army Forces commanded by Sharon) and he continues to prove that point.  He is a terrorist no less than the bombers in Haifa.

By his actions, he is inciting another generation of Palestinian terrorists, more implacable and fanatical.  

They are being created at this very moment.

They will be directing their anger at the U.S. too.  God help us if they get their hands on some weapons of serious destructive power.

I am not excusing the behaviour of the Suicide bombers, no one can.  It is reprehensible and unacceptable behavior.  But the reasons many young Palestinians are taking this path are not hard to find.  Extremism is met by extremism.  Anger is met by anger.

The United States needs to take the situation firmly in hand and put maximum pressure on BOTH the Israelis and the Palestinians to come to an agreement.

Sharon`s solution, that of destroying the Palestinian State and absolutely refusing to negotiate, is going to fail.

Even if he killed or ejected every Palestinian in the Occupied territories, (which fanatics in his party and in the Right wing religious parties are calling for) he would still have to deal with the millions of others living in other countries who would find a way to get their revenge.

And if Israel found a way to hunt them down, then Muslims across the world would take up the cause.  Are we going to kill the 5 billion Muslims in the world to solve this problem?

The only solution is the existence of BOTH an Israeli and Palestinian State in the Middle East.

Otherwise WE in the west are going to pay for Israeli intransigence.

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by mrfish:
i agree with you 100% tronski about how hate is created, etc, but i have to say you are dead wrong about hangtime.

in fact he's one of the few voices around here that isnt just mimicking the slop driveled on us by the press every night.

his plan isnt beyond criticsim but you gotta give him credit for at  least being a 'bad, troublemaker american' and using his brain.

Agreed.

Unfortunately I didn't portray my tone better and I applaud Hangtime for not going the "kill them all" route.

However I seriously doubt the Palestinian state would be peaceful being administered by another 'foreign' power. The isreali's are already regarded by the people as an occupying force.

There is no real solution unless the Isreali army can be completely restricted. Just as the Russian forces in KFOR were viewed with suspicion by Nato, so would an american enforced DMZ in Palestine. However only the americans would be completely capable to force the Isrealis to respect border restrictions. The Isreali state has shown complete disreguard for UN security council resolutions, so I doubt the army or palestinian terror groups would allow an armed UN peacekeeping force in the occupied territories to remain peacefully.

Tronsky

[Toad]

I think the problem would be finding any other nation besides the US that would want to touch this "tar baby".

If a call went out for troops to enforce a UN peacekeeping operation... troops ready to fight... who else would answer?

For that matter, what other nation is directly and publicly invovled in trying to work out a peace agreement there?

Answer is NONE.

Why is that?