Author Topic: The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings  (Read 10191 times)

Offline hogenbor

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #90 on: June 22, 2005, 05:08:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
You know, I certainly wouldn't want Kurfürst to be removed from this board.  But, I would like him to actually participate in honest discourse instead of whatever the hell it is he is doing.


Indeed.

Wait, I DO want him removed from this board. He is so single minded in his 'Deutschland, Deutschland ueber alles' that it's frightening. I live 30km from the German border and my country was overrun in 4 days in 1940 you know. Nothing against Germans, I work for a German company in fact, but 'meeting' a guy with such an obsessive need to drive the point home that Germany and Germans are better at everything makes me nervous

People discussed the mental illness of that 500hr supposed P-51 pilot here, what's his name again, but has anyone ever questioned Kurfürst's mental health? But maybe he is just trolling and gets off on us getting so worked up about him.

He seems to have a lot of data though, no matter to what he chooses to compare it with. I'm not in a position to deny his statements nor to confirm them. I just like the discussions here, until he comes along in a thread. He gives a whole new meaning to the word 'biased'. I forward the term 'Isegrimmed'.

But whatever the hell he is doing? Trying to convince us all that Germany won the war after all I guess... all the history is just propaganda. I've never see him come up with a reason why Germany finally lost despite being so much better at everything, Maybe he can argue that it took the whole free world to get the Third Reich to its knees or something :rolleyes:

I remember a thread where he claimed that the educational system of Germany was so much better than anywhere else and that a lot of the people who worked on the A-bomb for the USA had in fact been trained at German universities :rolleyes: Might be some truth in that but I guess many of them were Jewish refugees.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 05:10:53 AM by hogenbor »

Offline Charge

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #91 on: June 22, 2005, 07:00:36 AM »
"Small roll rate increase?
Quite a bit of a roll rate increase, yes?"

I'm pretty sure even without those test figures that Spitfire would certainly gain much more by having clipped wings than what it loses in wing area. The normal wing tip takes the effective vortex quite far from the aileron as eg. in 190 the aileron makes part of the wing tip thus making it very effective.

Also in 190 the AoA of the wing tip with its washout is probably good for roll rate too as there is not much turbulent flow disturbing the aileron effect.

Those NACA reports quite clearly state that rigidness of wing and ailerons are also very important in having decent roll rate. I find it hard to believe that to be a characteristic in Spit wing. So it would never be as good as 190 but it would get close. I think that in that NACA868 diagram the erduciton in effectiveness is probabaly caused more by wing warpage than loss of leverage on control column.

IIRC the FW aileron has more movement down than up so that the aileron is always in more effective flow as it is below the wing.
Some aircraft have more up deflection of aileron which I think is not a very good idea especially if the wing profile and AoA make the top flow of the wing turbulent as then the aileron loses its effectiveness quite rapidly.

About 190 and P51 stall behavior: The P51 laminar flow profile is more effective in reducing drag than that of 190. However, in high AoA the pressure tends to shift forward of the wing and it has been stated that the pressure peak moves forward more readily in laminar flow design that in eg. NACA 2315(-09) series, for example, meaning that the laminar design reaches it s max AoA more quicker and thus stalls earlier (and probably without much warning...). So a tight turning contest is not a good idea in actual P51 but its wing area and low drag do give it certain advantages, of course.

-C+

PS. "Maybe he can argue that it took the whole free world to get the Third Reich to its knees or something "

Hmm, how much did it take actually?

PPS. "I just like the discussions here, until he comes along in a thread. He gives a whole new meaning to the word 'biased'. I forward the term 'Isegrimmed'.

I could say that for a lot of people in this board. Maybe he is more visible to you because he does not share your common view of history etc.?

It is ridiculous to notice that many people participate threads only to attack him and not participating in actual topic.

tsk tsk (pot to kettle stuff...)
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline Kurfürst

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #92 on: June 22, 2005, 07:39:51 AM »
Results of flight trials with two MkXIIs with and without clipping the wings.

EN 221 was noted as having an inferior pair of ailerons, EN 222 having a good set. The minimal gain is noticable on the aircraft that had good ailerons to start with.



As for those people who suffer from reading comprehension and grammar  defects (see Guppy`s 'rightings' :lol), have deep htred against Germans and born without a thinking organ (Milo and hogenbor),  I suggest to read Squire`s or Kev`s post.
It pretty much summerizes the things.

And dear guppy, if you still instist to hold to your claims that every and all XVIs and FrXIV were delivered with clipped wings, I suggest :

a, realize clipped wings could be reverted to normal or extended wings in all combination rather simply
b, realize that you need to provide source for claims that look like the reaction of six-year old child who`s facing imminent heart attack when someone said his favourite toy is not the 'uncompromised and best in everything', which is the watermark of your posts.

Cheers and happy dismissing action to just another primary souce I just posted. :aok
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Offline Crumpp

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #93 on: June 22, 2005, 09:03:28 AM »
Quote
Also in 190 the AoA of the wing tip with its washout is probably good for roll rate too as there is not much turbulent flow disturbing the aileron effect.


Hey Charge!

Just to clarify on this point some, the FW-190 had no washout at the tip as I am sure you know.  This was done not only to increase aileron effectiveness but also to gain the benefits of elliptical distribution at its most important point for induced drag production.

It had 2 degrees of washout from span .81.5 to the root which almost splits the aileron in half.

It is interesting to note that unlike my previous assumption, the Clipped Wing Spitfire gains efficiency at the wingtip over its normal "elliptical" wingtip variant.

That is according to Woods formula from his 1966 work on improving predictions of Oswald's efficiency factor in correlation to flight test's.

Makes sense as modern research shows that elliptical distribution does not require elliptical physical shape to be just as efficient.

Quote
Surprisingly, data indicates that a square-tipped rectangular wing is very nearly as efficient as the elliptic wing, so that the gains in reduced induced drag may be insignificant. This result may be traced to the fact that, for a real wing, the lift distribution falls off to zero at the wing tips and approximates an elliptical distribution.


Quote
The wing-tip shape, being at the point where the tip vortices are produced, appears to be of more importance in minimizing tip vortex formation and thus minimizing induced drag. Taper and twist are perhaps of greater importance in dealing with the problem of stalling.


http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/Reducing_Induced_Drag/TH16.htm

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/Reducing_Induced_Drag/TH16G6.htm

Now granted the initial calculations my have some error due to not having exact data on speed for a clipped wing spitfire.  However the results were surprising and a speed change of up to 25 mph has no effect.

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 12:04:27 PM by Crumpp »

Offline hogenbor

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #94 on: June 22, 2005, 11:35:13 AM »
Quote
PS. "Maybe he can argue that it took the whole free world to get the Third Reich to its knees or something "

Hmm, how much did it take actually?

PPS. "I just like the discussions here, until he comes along in a thread. He gives a whole new meaning to the word 'biased'. I forward the term 'Isegrimmed'.

I could say that for a lot of people in this board. Maybe he is more visible to you because he does not share your common view of history etc.?

It is ridiculous to notice that many people participate threads only to attack him and not participating in actual topic.

tsk tsk (pot to kettle stuff...) [/B]


That's what I meant, it TOOK the whole free world (if you consider the USSR under Stalin 'free')

Biased some people may be, but there is a difference between biased and frothing at the mouth. It may be a fine line, but there is one. Even the most biased people might find something of value in other people's opinions, in a healthy discussion that is.

But you are right, I have contributed nothing to this thread :rolleyes: I simply do not have the knowledge. But come on, the only thing this guy lives for is to prove the superiority of Germany in general and the 109 in particular!

I'll let you in on a secret, the 109 IS my favourite WWII fighter, because it is sleek, menacing, has a hugely interesting career spanning 30 odds years, and a bewildering amount of variants. Reading about it here is great. But so is reading about the Spit or P-51. Comparing their strengths and weaknesses too. Coming across someone who is so biased as Kurfurst is not.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 11:44:17 AM by hogenbor »

Offline Guppy35

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #95 on: June 22, 2005, 12:09:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
Results of flight trials with two MkXIIs with and without clipping the wings.

EN 221 was noted as having an inferior pair of ailerons, EN 222 having a good set. The minimal gain is noticable on the aircraft that had good ailerons to start with.


As for those people who suffer from reading comprehension and grammar  defects (see Guppy`s 'rightings' :lol), have deep htred against Germans and born without a thinking organ (Milo and hogenbor),  I suggest to read Squire`s or Kev`s post.
It pretty much summerizes the things.

And dear guppy, if you still instist to hold to your claims that every and all XVIs and FrXIV were delivered with clipped wings, I suggest :

a, realize clipped wings could be reverted to normal or extended wings in all combination rather simply
b, realize that you need to provide source for claims that look like the reaction of six-year old child who`s facing imminent heart attack when someone said his favourite toy is not the 'uncompromised and best in everything', which is the watermark of your posts.

Cheers and happy dismissing action to just another primary souce I just posted. :aok


Still haven't answered the question.

You are claiming that the RAF decided that clipping the wings on the Spit wasn't worth it as the gain was minimal.

This based on a 1943 report.

Why did they continue to do it then?  Why were they delivering Spits with clipped wings in 1945 and beyond?

I didn't say they never put regular wing tips on a clipped wing Spit in the field.  

You jumped on me about numbers so I used some examples of those that were delivered with clipped wings, the XVIs and FRXIVs in 44-45 as you were suggesting my use of "thousands' was not accurate.

Still doesn't matter.

Tell me why the RAF continued to do it ?

And speaking of dismissing.  No comment on the AFDU report that I mentioned?  Seems like they liked the performance of the XII with clipped wings.  And of course those pilots I've talked to sure didn't mind it.

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Offline Guppy35

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #96 on: June 22, 2005, 12:24:31 PM »
It occurs to me to ask Izzy one more question.

Why do you care about whether the Spit had clipped wings or not?

The only discussion around it here has been in talking about what some of us RAF fans would like to see someday in a future AH Spitfire line up.

Most seem to agree that a Spit LF IX would be more representative of the majority of the Spit IXs that saw service vs the Spit FIX that AH has now.

In talking about what would be nice as a line up, suggesting a Spit LFVIII as a 43-44 bird and an LFIXe/XVIe for 44-45 with the clipped wing they were using for low level work was another suggestion.  So we get both a decent regular span wing and one clipped.  More options for skinning, scenarios etc.

Are you fearful that HT and company will produce some super Spit based on that discussion?  You don't even play the game do you?

You've consistantly found reasons to be critical of the Spitfire design, performance etc.

That's cool.  You don't have to like it.  But what's the point?

All this came about cause Kev has been looking for info to hopefully help convince HT and company to do a better representative RAF line up of Spits.

Again why do you care?

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Offline BUG_EAF322

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #97 on: June 22, 2005, 02:10:41 PM »
pls check the clipped wing spit movie.
see post : "spitfans"

for u gupppy u love it
;)

Offline MiloMorai

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2005, 09:00:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst As for those people who suffer from reading comprehension and grammar  defects (see Guppy`s 'rightings' :lol), have deep htred against Germans and born without a thinking organ (Milo and hogenbor),  I suggest to read Squire`s or Kev`s post.


A typical Barbi post.:(  It is so sad your bigotry and bias against the Brits clouds your thought process.

I am not going to cry to the mods as you can't help yourself. I just sluff it off as a typical reaction when you can't face your own shortcomings.

Now take a good look at yourself, for you are even worse than those you accuse of being Spitdweebs when it comes to your beloved 109. Need I have to mention the 'penny pocket' 109s using 1.98ata?

Oh yes, if I have such a deep hated for Germans, why is the Fw190/Ta152 my favourite a/c, besides the F4U and Tempest?
...........

Once the Allies were on the continent, most missions by the Spit were low level to low medium level. Now ask yourself which Spit would be more suited, the full span Spit or the clipped wing Spit?

Dan, it is really a lost cause. All we can try to do is put a check on Barbi's spreading of falsehoods and manipulations. Remember the thread on the Spit's bombload and weak landing gear. He will pick and choose what ever data suits his anti Spitfire/anti British agenda, disregarding all else that does not.

Offline Squire

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #99 on: June 23, 2005, 10:14:00 PM »
Interesting graphs for the Griffon powered Mk XII.

At 350 mph (a good fast combat speed):

The graph shows 2.5 seconds to roll clockwise 30 degrees for the standard wing and 1.8 seconds for the clipped wing.

Or, to roll 180 degrees, 7.5 seconds for a standard wing and 5.4 seconds for a clipped wing (EN 222).

Its roll rate is increased by 1.33 X with clipped wings. 1/3 faster in a clockwise roll.

The major clipped wing versions used in WW2 were the Spitfire L.F. V (1943-44) and Spitfire L.F. IXE, L.F. VIII and Spitfire L.F. XVI (1944-45). I have seen no data on any of these.

It makes as much sense to show a graph on the XII and use it as a blanket statement about "clipped wing Spitfires" as it would for me to show a graph on a Spit XII with standard wing tips (as above) and use that as a blanket statement for the roll rate of all Spits from the MkI of 1940 to the Mk21 of 1945.

You want to talk about the Spit XII in particular, its a good peice of data.
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Offline Kev367th

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #100 on: June 23, 2005, 10:30:06 PM »
Thought all XII's were clipped as standard?
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Offline Guppy35

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #101 on: June 23, 2005, 10:48:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Thought all XII's were clipped as standard?


All the production Spit XIIs delivered to either 41 or 91 Squadrons had clipped wings.

EN221 and EN222 were used for some testing early on before the XII went operational and at that time they tested them with and without clipped wings.

DP845 the prototype Spit XII had standard wings to start as well.  They were clipped later on.

But just to be clear, the combat used Spit XIIs were all clipped wing birds, and were produced and delivered as such.  

Image is of EN221 with full span wings.  They were chaged to clipped before she joined 41 Squadron.

Also info from my notes on EN221  

    *  First flight 10/13/42 F/L Clive Gosling
    * First of initial seven aircraft to have oil tank behind the pilot. This was found unsuitable for operations and the position was changed in production starting with EN228. Other seven A/C modifed to same standards.
    * Damaged 6/21/44 when it collided with EN224 while landing while being flown by F/S Robertson
    * Final flight from Tangmere to Colerne(39 MU) on 10/29/44 flown by ATA pilot Peter Garrod. He described the flight as "Fast but Ropey"


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Offline Czech

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #102 on: June 24, 2005, 01:01:39 PM »
All I know is that in 1945 after the war ended, the Czechoslovak fighter squadrons (310, 312, 313) flew home with their Spitfire LF Mk.IXEs.  All these planes had clipped wings.

They flew these until the end of war, and the Czech government bought for them from the British.  They also flew a lot of clipped LF Mk.Vs for a long time during the war.


Some were later sent to Israel and flew against the arabs.


Kind of strange considering the RAF found out in 1942 that it pretty much hurt to clip the Spitfire wings :D   But whatever suits you.

Offline hogenbor

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #103 on: June 25, 2005, 07:18:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Czech


Some were later sent to Israel and flew against the arabs.

Kind of strange considering the RAF found out in 1942 that it pretty much hurt to clip the Spitfire wings :D   But whatever suits you.


What's even worse, the Israeli's also had Avias with Jumo engines... :D

Offline Squire

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The effect of 'clipping' Spitfire wings
« Reply #104 on: June 29, 2005, 03:17:35 PM »
There were no Spitfire Vs flying front-line in either ADGB (Fighter Command) or 2nd Tac in 1944.

There were a small # of squadrons equipped with Spit L.F. Vbs which are not the same thing. Merlin 50M engines, clipped wings and +18 lbs boost and they did 338 mph at 2000 ft. and 350mph at 6000 ft. which was max throttle alt.

The following units used them over Normandy in June 1944 with ADGB 11 Group: 234, 345, 350 and 501 Sqns.

*************************************************

Spitfire Vb from spring 1941
Spitfire Vc from fall 1941
Spitfire L.F. Vb from spring 1943

All with clipped or standard wings. "Spitfire V" is not generic, any more than "Bf 109G" is. Their service in NW Europe, Med, Malta, Australia and SE Asia were at different times with different varients.
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