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Author Topic: Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car  (Read 855 times)

Offline Maverick

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2005, 02:48:34 PM »
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Originally posted by Gh0stFT
oil is still needed even with hydrogen cars,
think about plastic alone, its used everywhere.


Gee I wonder who else said something similar some time back......
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Offline vorticon

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2005, 04:15:11 PM »
"oil is still needed even with hydrogen cars,
think about plastic alone, its used everywhere."

yeah, but what do we make with plastic that absolutly could not be done with anything else, if it had to be done?
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Offline Maverick

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2005, 06:22:06 PM »
You mean things like implants, artificial joints, sterile containers for IV solutions, surgical gloves, rubber parts, tires. Yep yer right we can make all that stuff out of tin and wood.  :rolleyes:
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Offline Skydancer

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2005, 07:53:17 PM »
Actualy if the ammount of plastic that is currently thrown away was recycled we probably would not have to make any new plastics.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2005, 08:54:09 PM »
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Originally posted by Skydancer
MMM yes The USA probably does have abundant suypply of Hydrocarbons but if you keep burning em at the rate you do at the moment the USA might be a little smaller! and not quite such a comfortable place to live! So maybe a fuel who's only by product is water is a good idea? No?


You have to build hydrogen Skydancer.  

Possible sources are water, but that is already been burned.  Energy needs to be put into the H2O molecule to seperate the molecule into it's constituant elements.  

Entropy says you will have to put more energy into the electrolysis to seperate the parts than you get out of the hydrogen product.  Therefore, you need abundant supplies of energy from nuclear, hydropower, wind, solar or fossil.

An easier source is hydrocarbon.  The USA has enough in coal alone to completely service the energy needs at todays levels for 250 years.   Add the energy pent up in oil shale (more than the Saudi oil reserves) to liquified coal, and we could run todays automobile technology for many generations.

Hydrogen would be a good idea, but producing it will cause nuclear waste, dead birds from wind turbines, dead fish from dammed rivers, CO2 from fossil plants, etc.

Might as well go directly to solar vehicles. The technology for solar vehicles is a mature one.

     
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2005, 08:59:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skydancer
Actualy if the ammount of plastic that is currently thrown away was recycled we probably would not have to make any new plastics.


Every time we recycle we lose a little, so if we have no source for virgin plastic, and if we were to have 95% efficiency, after 5 recycles, we would only have 77% of the plastics we have today.

After 14 times through, we would be down to 50%
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Offline Toad

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2005, 09:01:34 PM »
Interesting stuff Holden.

Here Flicka!
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Offline Maverick

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2005, 09:35:38 PM »
Solar IMO is not a mature science. As long as we still have to draw more out of a battery to run the car at speed than can be put into it by a solar panel it can't be a feasable power source for major transportation. Not to mention that the sheer surface area needed for solar panels makes it very unlikely for even a small car at this time. Couple that with the fact that only a part of the country gets enough bright sun without clouds / fog to make it reliable everyday and it falls further back. For it to be a viable source it has to be as reliable as the petro fueled vehicles.

FWIW there are quite a few folks who are fulltime RVers that depend on solar for a significant amount of their power needs. Theyu are limited to the Southwest during the winter time to depend on it. They use at least 4 of the major sized golf cart 6 volt batteries for a sizable 12 volt power source. They can run tv, computers and lights for several hours a day. They cannot run the air conditioner on the batteries during the day and charge them up so summer solar is out there. They supplement it with a generator on cloudy or rainy days. Back to petro fuel power source.

The experiance they have had in wind power indicates that the smaller wind generators available (sized to work in a RV environment) require a wind speed up to 25 MPH steady to charge the batteries.

The batteries are still the lead acid wet cells with a limited number of times they can be discharged even to only half capacity then recharged back to full levels before they deteriorate. For best life a discharge to 70% to 50% max is recommended.

All of this is great and it's a start but there is still a need for petroleum and their byproducts. At this time I do not see any source of power that will allow easy transportation comparable to the standard oil powered vehicle. Outside of transportation almost everything is related in one way or another to petroleum uses or derivitives.

Transportation is just one aspect that needs a solution there are other problems equally as vexing that will need to be solved.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2005, 09:38:23 PM »
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Originally posted by Maverick
Solar IMO is not a mature science.  


Mr Ed begs to differ.
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Offline Maverick

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2005, 09:47:57 PM »
If by Mr Ed you mean the horse, that is neither an arguement nor does it refute what I have posted. The age of the horse is past somone has to live in the present and look forward, not back. Subsistance technology is stagnant not forward looking.
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Offline mora

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2005, 09:53:38 PM »
If you build a few nuclear powerplants, you will have pollution free energy to produce usable hydrogen for millions of people. Hydrogen rocks.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2005, 09:55:12 PM »
I guess you didn't get the humor of my statement, "The technology for solar vehicles is a mature one." followed by a picture of a horse.

you see, the horse is a vehicle which exists in harmony within the carbon cycle and is totally biodegradable, and it's recycleable, and....  aw forget it.
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Offline mora

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2005, 09:55:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Every time we recycle we lose a little, so if we have no source for virgin plastic, and if we were to have 95% efficiency, after 5 recycles, we would only have 77% of the plastics we have today.

After 14 times through, we would be down to 50%

That all can be replaced by hemp. Just ask the hippies.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2005, 09:58:32 PM »
It's tough to recycle hemp once you burn it.
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Offline Maverick

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Toyota aims for $50,000 hydrogen car
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2005, 09:59:19 PM »
Sorry Holden I was taking you seriously frm your earlier posts.
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