Suggested, complete Spitfire lineup for Aces High

[Karnak]

Here is my prefered list:

1940: Spitfire Mk Ia  (As we already have)

1941-1942: Spitfire Mk Vc, +12lbs Boost (120 rounds per cannon, but reduce the boost to 1941 levels)

1942-1943: Spitfire F.Mk IXc (remove the options for the .50 cals, rockets and 250lb bombs, otherwise keep it as it is.)

1943-1944: Spitfire LF.Mk VIII (Merlin 66, full length Universal wings.  Can stand in for the 1943 LF.Mk IX as well as be suitable for Med. and Pac. theatre usage)

1944-1945: Spitfire F.Mk XIV, +21lbs boost (Keep the armament options, but raise the boost to the +21 level to justify it's perked status and keep it as the ultimate Spitfire in AH)

1944-1945: Spitfire LF.Mk XVIe, +25lbs Boost (clipped wing and perhaps bubble canopy as the Mk VIII is available to stand in for the high back Mk IX in 1943/44.  This would be the ultimate free Spitfire)

Royal Navy: Seafire LF.Mk III (the most common wartime Seafire)

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Karnak
Here is my prefered list:

1940: Spitfire Mk Ia  (As we already have)

1941-1942: Spitfire Mk Vc, +12lbs Boost (120 rounds per cannon, but reduce the boost to 1941 levels)

1942-1943: Spitfire F.Mk IXc (remove the options for the .50 cals, rockets and 250lb bombs, otherwise keep it as it is.)

1943-1944: Spitfire LF.Mk VIII (Merlin 66, full length Universal wings.  Can stand in for the 1943 LF.Mk IX as well as be suitable for Med. and Pac. theatre usage)

1944-1945: Spitfire F.Mk XIV, +21lbs boost (Keep the armament options, but raise the boost to the +21 level to justify it's perked status and keep it as the ultimate Spitfire in AH)

1944-1945: Spitfire LF.Mk XVIe, +25lbs Boost (clipped wing and perhaps bubble canopy as the Mk VIII is available to stand in for the high back Mk IX in 1943/44.  This would be the ultimate free Spitfire)

Royal Navy: Seafire LF.Mk III (the most common wartime Seafire)

Nice list, 3 changes -
1) The Spit 1 was cleared to +12lbs boost in 1939/40, not the +6lbs we currently have.
2) VIII and XVI with the broad chord pointed rudders.
3) XVI Bubble canopy definate, so it looks different.

Of course your list makes too much sense to ever see it's way into AH2.

[Angus]

Hehe, the Spit was too good anyway.

We want aces High, not just Spits High.


Well, all jokes put aside, the Mk I should be on a higher boost. Our one is a "something" anyway. CS screw? 100 oct?
The V should be a middle one, not the ultimate one.
The Seafire should definately be another model.
The IX we have should move to only 2xHispano and .303
Then it comes to some configuration, perhaps a IX LF with a merlin 66
And a VIII with a Merlin 70
That would do the Merlin ones.
Our XIV is a tad off I think, - performs worse than Quill quotes for an early XIV.
Then there was the in-between XII for chase-jobs and such.
(190's were the threat mostly). Guppy could fill some info into that I am sure.
Oooops...to many Spitties.......

Well we have 5 109's already

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Angus
Hehe, the Spit was too good anyway.

We want aces High, not just Spits High.


Well, all jokes put aside, the Mk I should be on a higher boost. Our one is a "something" anyway. CS screw? 100 oct?
The V should be a middle one, not the ultimate one.
The Seafire should definately be another model.
The IX we have should move to only 2xHispano and .303
Then it comes to some configuration, perhaps a IX LF with a merlin 66
And a VIII with a Merlin 70
That would do the Merlin ones.
Our XIV is a tad off I think, - performs worse than Quill quotes for an early XIV.
Then there was the in-between XII for chase-jobs and such.
(190's were the threat mostly). Guppy could fill some info into that I am sure.
Oooops...to many Spitties.......

Well we have 5 109's already

If you look at Karnaks list it fills all of what your saying -
He asks for the 1941 Vc, so a middle one, Merlin 45, 45M (if LF Vc), or 46.
The LF XVI was basically a LF IX but with an American built Merlin 266.
The VIII should really have the Merlin 66 as Karnak suggests.

Don't think we'll get the XII -
1) Only 100 built
2) Another Griffon Spit (even if we got it, would be perked)

Well we have 5 109's already  - don't forget 4 190s also.

Karnaks list is well balanced and REPRESENTATIVE of the Spit Mks from BoB through to 1945, unlike our current lineup.

Shame theres no chance of getting the last wartime Spit -
Mk XVIII

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Karnaks list is well balanced and REPRESENTATIVE of the Spit Mks from BoB through to 1945, unlike our current lineup.

And that was my main goal, coupled with keeping the total number of varients as low as possible.  HTC aren't going to do 15 marks of Spitfire, but maybe, just maybe, they'd do 7 to effectively cover the whole war.

[Kev367th]

Yup and even then -
Spit 14 would still basically be ahnger queen.
Ditto spit 1 only ever used in scenarios usually.

Only leaves
V, VIII, IX, VXI + 1 seafire.

Pretty fair when it's up against a combined 8 (leaving out the 109E same as Spit 1) list of 109s/190s.

Would do the Mk V with a Merlin 45M, Seafire III with a 55M

So
Ia - Merlin II 12lbs boost
LF Vc - Merlin 45M
F IXc - Merlin 61
LF VIIIe - Merlin 66
F VIXe - Griffon 65 21lbs boost
LF XVIe - Merlin 266 25lbs boost

Seafire L III - Merlin 55M

Hows that look?

[Karnak]

Well, the VIIIs were 'c' winged, not 'e' winged and I like having the 'c' wing on the F.Mk XIV as an option as the first ones were armed with the two 20mm and four .303s.

Other than that, that is what I had in mind.


We need more Fw190s too and another Bf109G to fill the long gap between the Bf109G-6 and Bf109G-10.

Say:

Fw190A-2
Fw190A-5
Fw190A-6
Fw190A-8
Fw190F-8
Fw190D-9
Ta152H-1

And:

Bf109E-4
Bf109F-4
Bf109G-2
Bf109G-6
Bf109G-14
Bf109G-10 (Performance of a Bf109K-4)

[Kev367th]

Might be some confusion over 'wings'

a - 8x303

b - 4x303 + 2x20 +500lb bomb load

c -  4x303 + 2x20 + 500lb bomb load OR 4x20mm +500lb bomb load - sometimes called the 'universal wing'.

Now it gets confusing, after Spit V's -
what people call the 'c' wing was in fact the 'improved b wing'

improved b - 4x303 + 2x20 + 500lb bomb load

c - 4x20 + 500lb bomb load

e - 2x50 + 2 x20 + 1000lb bomb load

As you see the c wing after the Spit V was originally supposed to be 4x20mm.
I'm sure Dan will fix any errors, but I think I've got the main points right.
Which is why I believe Mk VIII pilots referred to them as VIIIb's.

[1K3]

190A-2's too rare. 190A-3 would be better...

BTW, for LW to keep up with mid and late SPITFIRES, HTC's Fw-190A-5 should use the RLM data (the one that had ~351 mph deck speed @ full power + WEP) and HTC's 190A-8 should use the most common engine variant of the BMW 801 TH version (ask crumpp for clarification, has also has TONS of documents on that...)

and btw, what i'm seeing is an ARMS RACE! WOW! one side's superior then the next day out paced.

[Kev367th]

Just like the real thing, it's exactly what happened.
Start with Spit MK V
LW brought out FW190
RAF brought out Spit Mk IX

etc etc

Excluding perk stuff -
Thats why I've always said with 9 LW frontline fighters, theres no way a representative Spit line up would encompass only 3 planes.

If you take out the Spit 1 and 109E - historical matchup.

That leaves 8 LW and a 'representative' lineup of 2 Spits - NOT

What HT is effectively saying is 2 1942 Spits are a representative selection against 1943/44 109s and 190s.

Remember were talking free stuff here not perked.

IK3 - I'm all for representative (most common made) planesets.
Look at RAF situation
Spit 1a - Only has 6lbs boost, 12lbs was actual cleared to.
Seafire IIc - Least produced variant, III had 4x as many built.
Spit F Mk IX - Least produced variant. LF IX had most produced.

Most common Spits (minimum of 1200+ built) -
Ia - 1939/40
LF Vb - 1941/2
LF IX - 1943
LF VIII - 1943
F XIV - 1944
LF XVI - 1944
Seafire III - 1942

[Kev367th]

What we should do (suggestion only) is pull all our info together and produce a proposal with sources etc we can send to HT.

Only reason I can see he wouldn't do it is being afraid the MA would be ruled by Mk XVI Spits.

I've made a start, if anyone wants what I have up to now let me know.

Desperately needed is -
Break down of Mk IX prod of F, LF and HF
Sources for 150 grade fuel use.

Question - Spits used incendiary rounds in addition to usual mix, this modelled in AH2?

The 'De Wilde' bullets were first issued in June 1940 and tested operationally in the air battles over Dunkirk. Their improved effectiveness, coupled with the fact that the flash on impact indicated that the shooting was on target, was much appreciated by the fighter pilots. It was at first in short supply, and the initial RAF fighter loading was three guns loaded with ball, two with AP, two with Mk IV incendiary tracer and one with Mk VI incendiary. Another source for the Battle of Britain armament gives four guns with ball, two with AP and two with incendiaries (presumably Mk VI) with four of the last 25 rounds being tracer (presumably Mk IV incendiary/tracer) to tell the pilot he was running out of ammunition. It is not clear why ball was used at all; presumably there was a shortage of the more effective loadings. (By 1942 the standard loading for fixed .303s was half loaded with AP and half with incendiary.)

[Crumpp]

We need more Fw190s too and another Bf109G to fill the long gap between the Bf109G-6 and Bf109G-10

Isn't AH's Bf-109G6 modeled with MW-50?  If it is then it's already a Bf-109G14.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Nice list, 3 changes -
1) The Spit 1 was cleared to +12lbs boost in 1939/40, not the +6lbs we currently have.
2) VIII and XVI with the broad chord pointed rudders.
3) XVI Bubble canopy definate, so it looks different.

Of course your list makes too much sense to ever see it's way into AH2.

One unchange.  Keep the LFXVI the high back version as very few bubble top XVI's made it into combat.  

Makes more sense to take the XIV that way.  Maybe an early XIV with a high back and Universal wing, and then a clipped wing low back FRXIV with E wing. Those operated in the ETO at the end and in the CBI.

Hey, one can dream

Added images of 602 Squadron clipped wing Spitfire LFXVIe's famous for their dive bombing.

Kinda partial to 602 Squadron from an old AW scenario where I GL'd em with CPorky as my wingman.  Beer and Skittles flights  Gotta have high back XVIs

Dan/CorkyJr

[Guppy35]

Kev.

1054 production LFXVIe produced.  That means all of them were LF.

Just went through the serial ranges break down in Bruce Robertson's "Spitfire-The Story of a Famous Fighter".  

While it's a rough count, roughly 3500 of the 5600 + Spit IXs were LFIXs

Intersting breakdown of the VIII in the book too.

160 HF VIII with the Merlin 70
273 F VIII with the Merlin 61, 63 or 63A
1,225 LF VIII with the Merlin 66

I would imagine you can figure the percentages similar for the IX

Dan/CorkyJr

[Kev367th]

For the Spits were are talking about this is what I found, and incorporating Dans figures, for year introduced and numbers built -

Mk      Year   Number Manufactured
Ia      1940
Vb      1941   3993
Vc      1941   2447
VIII F      1943   273
VIII LF   1943   1225
VIII HF   1943   160
IX F      1942   -----------------------------------------
IX LF      1943   total of 5665 (3500+ LF variants)
IX HF      1942   -----------------------------------------
XIV      1944   957
XVI LF   1944   1054 (All made as LF)

   Seafire
IIc      1942   372
III      1943   1220

This backs up Karnaks list being representative of Spit Mks and variants.
Ia
Vb
LF IX
LF VIII
F XIV
LF XVI
Seafire L III

All being the most produced.

What is needed now is a numbers breakdown on Spit Vb, F, LF  numbers.
Then we can move onto engines.