Author Topic: Eurofighter vs. F15  (Read 1699 times)

Offline Bodhi

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Eurofighter vs. F15
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2005, 01:56:39 PM »
Sounds to me like Straiga is now training the RAF....

Where's Golfer, maybe he can verify.  :rofl
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Offline eagl

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Eurofighter vs. F15
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2005, 02:00:57 PM »
It's equally likely that the F-15s hit their low-level training rules that call for a fight termination after 180 deg of turn or a change in offensive/defensive roles, and terminated their maneuvering.  Current training rules and UK airspace structure do not allow for a full-up ACM engagement at low altitudes so such engagement opportunities often result in taking a shot if possible, and flowing through the fight by acknowledging obvious kills and continuing on our way.

You guys are sure getting all bent out of shape discussing this...  It's almost like an aero club guy bragging how the last time he got his piper cub up to 6000 ft, he got an F-15 to overshoot in a flat scissors and gunned it on the way by.  Piffle.  If you don't have a firm understanding of the training rules and restrictions, or the exact situation at the time, saying anyone got spanked is pretty much ignorant trash talking.  If a eurofighter driver comes up to me after gunning me and gives me a little dig for flying a skypig, he's earned that right.  Reading it in here...  Heh...  Well, it's a neat story I guess but most of the people making pseudo-factual statements and declarations have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

Want my personal opinion on what MIGHT have happened?  My guess is that the F-15 guys saw the eurofighter and although they could have wasted it BVR, they either couldn't meet their pre-briefed ROE or wanted to get up closer to take a look first.  When they got up close, they got an up-close and personal look at the energy maneuvering capabilities of a modern next-generation fighter.  Remember again that our training rules do not permit low-altitude ACM tactics to be practiced so  "what we'd really do" style of tactic in a visual-id situation, where (for example) one jet might dust-off the bogie while the other one hung back a few miles ready to fire at the hostile declaration, could not be used.  A mach+ separation could not be used.  They couldn't jettison external stores or tanks (brits get mad when we bomb the UK, go figure).

Er... that is all :)
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Offline Toad

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Eurofighter vs. F15
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2005, 02:03:58 PM »
Is it time for us to be fielding an new "frontline" fighter?

Yep.  But that really goes beyond and irrespective of this engagement.

Was there something else?
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Offline Yeager

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Eurofighter vs. F15
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2005, 02:06:01 PM »
dam........

always one guy with facts, a complete understanding of the topic and first hand experience taking the wind out of a great BS thread.

NEXT!!!!
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Offline Krusher

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Eurofighter vs. F15
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2005, 02:08:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
Just curious, why does it bug you? It doesnt bug me one bit when people from other countries call Americans Yanks.




I was online Saturday night with a bunch of brits talking about a game we play when a lady broke in and asked who the yank was.  I told her, she said hi and it didnt bother me at all.

Offline TracerX

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« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2005, 02:21:07 PM »
Eagl, you make every other post in here sound like moronic blabber, including mine.  Nice Post, and thanks for the insight.:)

Offline Krusher

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« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2005, 02:32:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
They couldn't jettison external stores or tanks (brits get mad when we bomb the UK, go figure).

 


That reminds me of the AW con a few years back. Bud Anderson was talking about how Chuck Yeager dropped his tanks so he could strafe and set them on fire.

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2005, 02:53:29 PM »
Early Tranche 1 RAF Eurofighters are fitted with cannon but don't have the software for them to fire (they're purposely not supported).  Later Tranche 2 aircraft don't have cannon fitted at all due to tests of fatigue of the airframe etc.

Anyway, here's an interview with Chief of Staff - General John. P. Jumper on being the only pilot to fly both the F-22 and the Eurofighter.

3/22/2005 - WASHINGTON -- The Air Force chief of staff added to his 5,000-plus flying hours with familiarization flights in both the F/A-22 Raptor and the Eurofighter aircraft.

Gen. John P. Jumper said the Eurofighter is both agile and sophisticated, but is still difficult to compare to the F/A-22 Raptor. He is the only person to have flown both aircraft.

"They are different kinds of airplanes to start with," the general said. "It's like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula 1 car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance."

The Raptor is the latest addition to the Air Force combat aircraft inventory. The Eurofighter is a combat fighter aircraft designed and produced as a joint effort by several European countries.

Despite being designed for different missions, General Jumper said the Eurofighter and the Raptor are equally high-tech aircraft.

"The Eurofighter is certainly, as far as smoothness of controls and the ability to pull (and sustain high G forces), very impressive," he said. "That is what it was designed to do, especially the version I flew, with the avionics, the color moving map displays, etc. -- all absolutely top notch. The maneuverability of the airplane in close-in combat was also very impressive."

The F/A-22 performs in much the same way as the Eurofighter, General Jumper said. But it has additional capabilities that allow it to perform the Air Force's unique missions.

"The F/A-22 Raptor has stealth and supercruise," he said. "It has the ability to penetrate virtually undetected because of (those) capabilities. It is designed to be a penetrating airplane. It can maneuver with the best of them if it has to, but what you want to be able to do is get into contested airspace no matter where it is."

General Jumper said he believes the Eurofighter and the Raptor will help America's allies and the Air Force each perform their part of the overall mission as they work together to execute the war on terror.

"We do things in a complementary way," he said. "We have been to war with our allies in Desert Storm, in Kosovo and more recently in Afghanistan and Iraq. We all have our roles to play, and the role of the U.S. Air Force is in many ways to kick down the door and make sure the airspace is available for people to do whatever it is they want to do in the air or on the ground under that airspace."

One advantage of having flown the Eurofighter, General Jumper said, is that it allows him to get first-hand knowledge of technology U.S. allies use and to see how America's handiwork stacks up. He said he believes the two aircraft are running neck-and-neck, but America must always be vigilant to ensure it stays on the cutting edge of aviation technology.

"You can see the technology that is out there compared with ours," he said. "You see the avionics and all of the great progress that has been made. You make sure you are not too complacent, because the technology that they have is very competitive with technology that we have."
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Offline indy007

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« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2005, 02:54:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher
That reminds me of the AW con a few years back. Bud Anderson was talking about how Chuck Yeager dropped his tanks so he could strafe and set them on fire.


That's from Yeager's biography. Turned out their squadron had gotten into a big furball at the same time they were off playing and the ground crews thought they must have gotten a bunch of kills since they came in with blackened wings. They never did get those DT's to ignite.

Offline Dowding

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Eurofighter vs. F15
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2005, 02:54:58 PM »
I talked to a test pilot of the Eurofighter when on a job interview at BAE Systems' base in Preston.

He said the Eurofighter should beat F16, F15 and Tornado and only be out-performed by the F-22. But then again, I guess you can start to measure effectiveness in £/plane - although £8 billion over budget must be eating into that particular KPI.
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Offline Raider179

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« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2005, 02:57:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
Raider,

I dunno when the last guns kill was but it came close a few times in desert storm when the initial batch of aim-7s had an 80%+ failure rate at launch.  The last 2 USAF kills were in or rapidly approaching the visual arena due to missile failure and the rules of engagement may not always allow for BVR shots, resulting in a knife-fight.  The Israelis may have a few modern jet guns kills but I'm not sure.  I know for a fact that there were guns-only engagements in relatively recent South American conflicts.

Remember, it was only 3 years ago when F-15 pilots swore up and down that they would NEVER take their 55 million dollar fighter low enough to strafe, yet it's become an important option that all of our fighters bring to the table on the modern battlefield.  We've had guys strafing within about 50 yards of troops in contact, and you can't do that with anything but a gun.  You can't get that kind of accuracy with a podded gun, even if you have a suitable weapons station on which to hang it.  It's gotten to the point that we made a serious effort to determine if we could teach F-15C pilots how to strafe.  It didn't go too well for various reasons but it was important enough that we gave it a shot.

I don't know a single fighter jock who would honestly recommend getting rid of the internal gun, unless he/she has an agenda to push.  There will likely be a tradeoff made with the JSF in certain variants due to airframe space limitations, but I know for a FACT that the service due to receive those fighters will regret that design deficiency.  Every single time we've removed the internal gun from a US designed fighter, we've wished we had it back later on.  Every single time.


I wouldnt want them(guns)  to be removed either. They definitely have their uses, but The fact still remains that most engagements since vietnam are with missiles. Sounds like those strafing f-15's were doing a job that apaches/cobras/a10s should have  been tasked for.

not too mention I think it would damn near impossible to shoot down a modern jet with guns. But you would know more about that than me so I defer:)

Offline Replicant

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« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2005, 02:59:15 PM »
Tranche 3 Eurofighter will probably be superior to most aircraft... but you're talking 7 or 8 years off for T3.  Have to make do with T1 and T2 aircraft for now.
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Offline Furball

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« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2005, 03:42:10 PM »
being called a limey doesnt bother me, in fact i am very suprised someone got all anal about it.

if i called a yank, 'a yank' and he got all upset, i would laugh at him too.
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Offline SuperDud

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« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2005, 04:42:55 PM »
I don't like being called a yank you limey
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2005, 04:54:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
It's equally likely that the F-15s hit their low-level training rules that call for a fight termination after 180 deg of turn or a change in offensive/defensive roles, and terminated their maneuvering.  Current training rules and UK airspace structure do not allow for a full-up ACM engagement at low altitudes so such engagement opportunities often result in taking a shot if possible, and flowing through the fight by acknowledging obvious kills and continuing on our way.


An excellent point. Unbriefed ACM training exercises are probably frowned upon.
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