Author Topic: Downing Street Memos  (Read 1361 times)

Offline T0J0

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Downing Street Memos
« on: June 20, 2005, 01:37:06 PM »
This just keeps getting better everyday!!
More damaging forged documents...


"We now know that the reporter who publicized the memos, Michael Smith of the London Times, claims that after receiving the documents from a leaker, he had a secretary retype the documents using an old-fashioned typewriter, and then either destroyed or returned the copies he had originally obtained"

TJ

Offline Toad

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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2005, 02:01:57 PM »
Haven't seen anything implying forgery. Got a link?

I've only seen that the US and Brit govt's aren't denying the memo.
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Offline Krusher

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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2005, 02:10:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Haven't seen anything implying forgery. Got a link?

I've only seen that the US and Brit govt's aren't denying the memo.


AP

Excerpts from material in secret Downing Street memos written in 2002. The information, authenticated by a senior British government official, was transcribed from the original documents.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2005, 02:32:20 PM »
Ok, I've been digging a bit and I think I understand what the brouhaha is now about them.

Quote
own admissions, they are third-generation (at best) reproductions (not even copies) of the originals. Their legal value is zero.


The orginals were reproduced, then re-typed, thus we get to 3rd Gen reproductions.


Quote
That being said, I have to agree with the guys over at Powerline. I believe that the memos released are, for the most part, accurate representations of actual official documents.


I'm guessing true. As I said, neither the Brits on the White House have denied anything about these yet have they?


 
Quote
But the significance of those memos have been vastly overstated. They are the OPINIONS of one person on what other people THOUGHT other people were THINKING. It's speculation piled upon presumption.


Here's where it finally "gets down to it". If they have something other than specualation, there's the basis for further investigation leading to a Special Prosecutor. If they don't have anything but specualtion... dead end.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Krusher

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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2005, 02:40:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad

Here's where it finally "gets down to it". If they have something other than specualation, there's the basis for further investigation leading to a Special Prosecutor. If they don't have anything but specualtion... dead end.



That's why they are not gaining traction over here.

Offline DoctorYO

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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2005, 02:57:55 PM »
if they were false why wait 1 1/2 months to discredit them now. (they have been out since may..)

Looks to me that now that the major news is showing traction this is dammage control...

look at it from a catalyst level and who may gain or gain not and it becomes more clear the recent new revelation to their challanging the credibility of the downing street minutes..

(note i said minutes, and that alone brings alot of credibility in my book..)(if it was a opinion page then well make your own deductions, minutes are entirely different..)

DoctorYo

Offline Toad

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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2005, 03:02:06 PM »
Apparently minutes of one person's opinions.

It'll all come out eventually.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2005, 03:18:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Apparently minutes of one person's opinions.

It'll all come out eventually.


I understand Dan Rather also has a copy that he will stand by 100%....

Offline T0J0

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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2005, 03:54:55 PM »
Much adou about nothing......

TJ

Offline DoctorYO

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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2005, 04:02:08 PM »
first and formost do you even know what minutes are..

minutes are not some opinion..  they are record of what has taken place..  

for your ignorance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minutes

selective quotes from the above...

"Most public meetings and governmental hearings follow prescribed rules. Often speakers' words are recorded verbatim, or with only minor paraphrasing, so that every speaker's comments are included."

"If the members of the committee or group agree that the written minutes reflect what happened at the meeting, then they are approved, and the fact of their approval is recorded in the minutes of the current meeting. If there are errors or omissions, then the minutes will be re-drafted and submitted again at a later date. Minor changes may be made immediately, and the amended minutes may be approved "as amended." It is normal appropriate to give a draft copy of the minutes to the other members in advance of the meeting so that the meeting need not be delayed while everyone reads and corrects the draft. It is not usually considered appropriate to vote to approve minutes for a meeting which one did not attend. It is also not wise to approve minutes which one has not read."


now connect the dots between Richard Clark...., Mr. Wilson (ex diplo to niger) , and the Downing Street Minutes..

Considering another 500000 people have demanded a response from the White House (hand delivered on friday) lets see if Scotty pulls another "we have no comment thats old news" smokescreen he tried last time...  (note the 500000 was achieved in less than 2 months with no major news agency in the USA showing it..  Now I see it on the news every night..  debate and squabbling over it..  how many sigs do you think Rep Conyers will get in 6 months with major news time..)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Conyers

looking forward for them to ignore that one...  your inquiry may be right around the corner Toad.

Seems of late that were trying to push democracy around the world ..  A good start would be to give the 500000 people a honest and decent answer as opposed to ducking the questions with great implications to our country's future..

your rebuttal?





DoctorYo

Offline Flatbar

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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2005, 04:27:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoctorYO



 (note the 500000 was achieved in less than 2 months with no major news agency in the USA showing it..  


Ummm, that number of sigs took less than two weeks to compile. At one time they were logging something like 2,500 an hour the Friday before last Thursday's meeting in the basement.

Offline Drunky

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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2005, 04:42:49 PM »
Wow, a little touchy there DoctorYo.  Try decaffe or anger management.  Maybe even both.


Here are some 'minutes' that I took in a meeting with myself:

Drunky:  I think that Mr. Bush is thinking that he should fake the war, you know, claim there are WMDs in Iraq so he could finish what daddy didn't.

Drunky: I have to say that I don't agree with that line of thinking.  I mean, how could you be thinking about what somebody else is thinking, especially the President.  I'm sure he wears tin foil on his head to prevent people from stealing his thoughts.

Drunky: Well, I have super x-ray brain powers.  That and something called 'speculation', although some people who think that Bush always lies and is evil and call him 'Boosh' and 'Hitler' will call this 'fact' and get jiggy with it.

Drunky: Hmmmmmm.  You have a good point.  Think we should tell DoctorYo about this?

Drunky: Wow.  That is exactly what I was thinking.  You must have read my mind.

There.  This meeting took place at 4:42 pm at my desk.  Me  and I were present for the meeting as Myself was in the potty.


Well, DoctorYo, as you can see I have transcribed exactly what I said to myself verbatim.  You will notice that I stated a few things that I 'thought' and not necessarily 'facts'.  Viola, I have my very own Downing Street Memo.  Don't let the news media get hold of it because Congress will start an investigation and I can't explain the white stain on your pretty blue dress.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2005, 04:46:02 PM by Drunky »
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Offline Makarov9

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Downing Street Memos
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2005, 04:50:47 PM »
That brought a tear to my eye Drunky...

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2005, 04:51:15 PM »
I have a couple questions here. The first being if this is the entire memo that is considered to be the one "alleging" made up reasons to go to war that I am pasting below?

FWIW I got this copy direct from Dr YO's posted links so I am relying on his source, an admittedly unresearched source on my part.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
memo:
Downing Street Memo
From Wikisource
SECRET AND STRICTLY PERSONAL - UK EYES ONLY

To: DAVID MANNING From: Matthew Rycroft Date: 23 July 2002 S 195 /02

cc: Defence Secretary, Foreign Secretary, Attorney-General, Sir Richard Wilson, John Scarlett, Francis Richards, CDS, C, Jonathan Powell, Sally Morgan, Alastair Campbell

IRAQ: PRIME MINISTER'S MEETING, 23 JULY

Copy addressees and you met the Prime Minister on 23 July to discuss Iraq.

This record is extremely sensitive. No further copies should be made. It should be shown only to those with a genuine need to know its contents.

John Scarlett summarised the intelligence and latest JIC assessment. Saddam's regime was tough and based on extreme fear. The only way to overthrow it was likely to be by massive military action. Saddam was worried and expected an attack, probably by air and land, but he was not convinced that it would be immediate or overwhelming. His regime expected their neighbours to line up with the US. Saddam knew that regular army morale was poor. Real support for Saddam among the public was probably narrowly based.

C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

CDS said that military planners would brief CENTCOM on 1-2 August, Rumsfeld on 3 August and Bush on 4 August.

The two broad US options were:

(a) Generated Start. A slow build-up of 250,000 US troops, a short (72 hour) air campaign, then a move up to Baghdad from the south. Lead time of 90 days (30 days preparation plus 60 days deployment to Kuwait).

(b) Running Start. Use forces already in theatre (3 x 6,000), continuous air campaign, initiated by an Iraqi casus belli. Total lead time of 60 days with the air campaign beginning even earlier. A hazardous option.

The US saw the UK (and Kuwait) as essential, with basing in Diego Garcia and Cyprus critical for either option. Turkey and other Gulf states were also important, but less vital. The three main options for UK involvement were:

(i) Basing in Diego Garcia and Cyprus, plus three SF squadrons.

(ii) As above, with maritime and air assets in addition.

(iii) As above, plus a land contribution of up to 40,000, perhaps with a discrete role in Northern Iraq entering from Turkey, tying down two Iraqi divisions.

The Defence Secretary said that the US had already begun "spikes of activity" to put pressure on the regime. No decisions had been taken, but he thought the most likely timing in US minds for military action to begin was January, with the timeline beginning 30 days before the US Congressional elections.

The Foreign Secretary said he would discuss this with Colin Powell this week. It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbours, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran. We should work up a plan for an ultimatum to Saddam to allow back in the UN weapons inspectors. This would also help with the legal justification for the use of force.

The Attorney-General said that the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action. There were three possible legal bases: self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC authorisation. The first and second could not be the base in this case. Relying on UNSCR 1205 of three years ago would be difficult. The situation might of course change.

The Prime Minister said that it would make a big difference politically and legally if Saddam refused to allow in the UN inspectors. Regime change and WMD were linked in the sense that it was the regime that was producing the WMD. There were different strategies for dealing with Libya and Iran. If the political context were right, people would support regime change. The two key issues were whether the military plan worked and whether we had the political strategy to give the military plan the space to work.

On the first, CDS said that we did not know yet if the US battleplan was workable. The military were continuing to ask lots of questions.

For instance, what were the consequences, if Saddam used WMD on day one, or if Baghdad did not collapse and urban warfighting began? You said that Saddam could also use his WMD on Kuwait. Or on Israel, added the Defence Secretary.

The Foreign Secretary thought the US would not go ahead with a military plan unless convinced that it was a winning strategy. On this, US and UK interests converged. But on the political strategy, there could be US/UK differences. Despite US resistance, we should explore discreetly the ultimatum. Saddam would continue to play hard-ball with the UN.

John Scarlett assessed that Saddam would allow the inspectors back in only when he thought the threat of military action was real.

The Defence Secretary said that if the Prime Minister wanted UK military involvement, he would need to decide this early. He cautioned that many in the US did not think it worth going down the ultimatum route. It would be important for the Prime Minister to set out the political context to Bush.

Conclusions:

(a) We should work on the assumption that the UK would take part in any military action. But we needed a fuller picture of US planning before we could take any firm decisions. CDS should tell the US military that we were considering a range of options.

(b) The Prime Minister would revert on the question of whether funds could be spent in preparation for this operation.

(c) CDS would send the Prime Minister full details of the proposed military campaign and possible UK contributions by the end of the week.

(d) The Foreign Secretary would send the Prime Minister the background on the UN inspectors, and discreetly work up the ultimatum to Saddam.

He would also send the Prime Minister advice on the positions of countries in the region especially Turkey, and of the key EU member states.

(e) John Scarlett would send the Prime Minister a full intelligence update.

(f) We must not ignore the legal issues: the Attorney-General would consider legal advice with FCO/MOD legal advisers.

(I have written separately to commission this follow-up work.)

MATTHEW RYCROFT


Wikisource:Historical_documents#United_Kingdom

Retrieved from "http://wikisource.org/wiki/Downing_Street_Memo"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Second question here. After reading this thing in it's entirety I'm at a loss. I was hoping to see someplace in here where it confirms any allegations that the war was going to be innitiated on a fictitious precept. Is there a paragraph missing here that I should be seeing that says this is going to be a made up reason to go to conflict?
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Offline T0J0

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Downing Street Memos
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2005, 08:10:40 PM »
Drink the koolaid yo...... it will all be better then..... Stress kills!  
TJ