Originally posted by crowMAW
Seagoon! Great sermon! I'm not sure what aspects would be illegal in Sweden, but I don't see that you would be charged with a hate crime in Canada. 
Crow,
Thank you. Keep in mind that was only point three in a three pointer. The other two points were #1 What does the Bible Teach About Gay Marriage? #2 How Does A Society Get to this Point? How did We?
The Swedish law assumes that to call homosexual sex an abomination is an act of hate against homosexuals likely to incite violence towards them, so reading and preaching Leviticus or Romans as I did in point 1 would immediately get me in trouble.
I have a question though...and I'm not trying to be mean or insulting: Why don't you live by that sermon?
Why wouldn't you want to be like Paul and use the Good News and your witnessing to the culture as your means to change culture? Instead of trying to legislate moral behavior (which doesn't work well), why not change the culture's desire for the behavior. That way, even if gay marriage was legal, no one would exercise that right because they wouldn't want to.
From what I understand, God has given me the right to choose to lead a righteous life or not...why do Christians feel they need to legally force me to lead their version of a righteous life and strip that God given right from me? I know you want to save as many from damnation as possible, but even if you legislate every moral code in the Bible and I live by them all, I will not be saved according to your beliefs because I admit that I do not have faith that the Bible is more than the written word of a man and not a revealed work of God. Of course you could throw the Constitution out the window and try to legally force me to believe...but I would probably prefer to endure persecution and exicution over admitting to something that I do not believe is true.
That's a valid question, and it indicates that I probably wasn't clear enough. I certainly try to practice that which I preach and teach (in all things I fall short, and remain a debtor to grace.) I do not advocate that the church become involved in partisan politics, and in my role as a pastor, God forbid that I would ever abuse my calling and stand in the pulpit and act as a shill for one party or the other.
However, Christians are called, as I said in the sermon snipet, to be good citizens and the church must exercise a prophetic role in society by proclaiming both law and gospel.
We believe that the moral law of God which is summarized in the Ten Commandments (decalogue) has three uses:
1) As Revealer of Sin - By showing us God's holiness and our reflected sinfulness the law acts as a schoolmaster leading us to Christ for salvation
2) As the Norm For Sanctification - Once we have come to Christ for salvation and been given new hearts the law acts as a rule and guide for our sanctification - growth in grace, answering critical questions for the Christian like "How should I act towards God? How should I treat my fellow men?"
3) As a Restrainer of Sin - This third use of the law is sometimes called the
usus politicus or
usus civilis it states that the moral law of God is supposed to function as the rule and guide for our
civil laws. Here is a section from a systematic theology explaining it further:
"
C. The Law as a Restraint to Sin – usus politicus or usus civilis .In addition to these two direct uses of the law, there is a beneficial side–effect of the preaching of the law. Such preaching serves to act as a restraining influence against sin in the world. The law systems of the various western European countries were based on the Ten Commandments. This is certainly true regarding the English law, which was the basis for American law. As one analyzes the nature of any human system of law, he must recognize that it always involves a theology. Law is based on an ultimate authority––God or man. When a society sets aside the theological basis upon which its laws are based, it is in danger of losing the whole law fabric. This is the current situation in America today. It is the duty of Christians to seek to call their nation back to a proper theological basis for the laws of the land."
[Smith, Dr. Morton H. Systematic Theology, Volume One : Prolegomena, Theology, Anthropology, Christology.]
So the church is called to proclaim the whole counsel of God, and Christians are to strive to live their lives according to it. In the legislative arena (which is entered into not by the church, but by private citizens who are members of it) this will involve standing for laws based on the moral law and voting against laws that seek to overturn it.
But our ultimate objective is not to win the battle against sin and evil by legislation, the most that legislation can do is restrain it. As you pointed out our ultimate desire is to change hearts and lives forever via the gospel.
You mention that your church was outraged about the 10c removal from the courthouse. And based on your posts, you seem to be outraged by "liberal activist" judges and their decisions enough to support reigning in their power and giving more to legislative bodies where religion is concerned.
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Actually, I paraphrased another pastor by the name of Bill Smith who noted the irony in the fact that American Evangelicals (the church corporately not our church particularly) was upset at the removal of a 10 commandments monument in Alabama but that evangelicals had been "ejecting" the same ten commandments from their churches for years (just mention the 10 commandments around many Christians and immediately the word "legalist" comes out) What good is a chunk of rock if the words printed on it have no value to either the world or the church?
BTW - I am convinced that only an originalist interpretation of the constitution will safeguard the rights vouchsafed in the constitution, amongst them the right to freedom of religion.
Why doesn't your church see that when a judge overturns a law like the ban on gay marriage or ordering the removal of the 10c or "under God", that it is not an attack on Christianity. As you say, governments are of this world and for this world...the church is in this world but not of it. If that is the case, then these court decisions cannot harm Christianity or the church...it would only force the congregation to allow God to be their judge of immoral activity rather than an imperfect human judge. The way I see it, that is better for all in the end. Everyone gets to live by their beliefs so long as they do not infringe on the rights of others. And in the end God decides who lived the righteous life.
The Church and State are separate powers, ordained over separate spheres. The church has no right to make a constitution for or rule the state, and the state has no right to make a constitution for or rule the church. However (and this understanding is also that of the constitution and its framers) we would say that both of their powers devolve from God, and that that power is delegated by God. He has ordained them to act as his viceregents and given them power to do so.
However, if I, as an elder in the church, set aside God's laws and say "listen instead to my opinions, obey my word, not God's word, I shall be as God to you" as so many cult leaders have for instance, then I cease to be an undershepherd of the Lord and become a usurper, and a tyrant. God's people have a right at that point to say,
"NO! We ought to obey God rather than Man. You have no right nor power to say and do these things, nor to insist that we do them. Only God can command our consciences."In a similar fashion, when a civil magistrate overturns the decalogue and says "I will instead rule according to my opinions" he ceases to be a just ruler rightly exercising his delegated power and becomes a tyrant and a usurper. In matters indifferent (alternate side of the street parking laws for example) on which the decalogue doesn't directly bear, his opinions may hold sway and are to obeyed if they are the law of the land.
However if, for instance, he says,
"Those who buy the right to do so from me, may legally seize your land at will", he has overturned God's law which states "You shall not steal." He may believe it is legal, but it is not, and no Christian may lawfully buy and exercise that unlawful power. Moreover, it is their duty in the civil sphere, in so far as they can, to oppose all such laws.
Plus, keep in mind that as private citizens we have no desire to live in, or attempt to raise our children in, a land dominated by immoral laws. If we have no choice, as was the case in Corinth long ago or North Korea today, then we will do so, but in a society such as ours we will do what we can to create a society with laws that sweetly comply God's laws.
- SEAGOON
