Revolver question

[VOR]

Those Nagant revolvers are surgin the surplus market at the moment. They can be had in "like new" condition for about $120 or so depending on where you look. The ammunition is pretty expensive, though. I might invest in one just for the sake of having it in the collection.

The sport revolvers you mentioned are also appearing on the market. Talk about ugly!

[Boroda]

Originally posted by VOR
Those Nagant revolvers are surgin the surplus market at the moment. They can be had in "like new" condition for about $120 or so depending on where you look. The ammunition is pretty expensive, though. I might invest in one just for the sake of having it in the collection.

The sport revolvers you mentioned are also appearing on the market. Talk about ugly!

Nagants were manufactured here at least until 1945. There are millions of them, and they are still used by different non-military state guard units and something like arming bank employees. I had a girl-friend who worked in Savings Bank, they took her to the shooting range to shoot 7 bullets or so every six months. That girl could hardly lift the damn thing

An interesting thing is that there were originaly two versons of Nagant: officer's double-action and soldier's single action. Soldier's version was more expensive, but it was "inconvenient" to arm soldiers with the same quality weapon as officers...

[VOR]

Yes, the single-action ones fetch a much higher price. It must be "inconvenient" to sell them for less.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by VOR
Yes, the single-action ones fetch a much higher price. It must be "inconvenient" to sell them for less.

And they are usually older then others by default. When I said about "inconvenience" I meant Russian Empire, in Soviet time they manufactured only double-action version.

[VOR]

I knew what you meant

[lasersailor184]

I don't think you were explaining it well enough.  On the Nagant Pistol, when you kick in the single action (I.E. Pull back the hammer) it pushed forward the cylinder closing the seal between the cylinder and the barrel.

Take any standard revolver to the range.  Hold your hand next to the cylinder and fire the gun.  You'd be able to feel the gases from there not being a seal.


So this improves the range, and accuraccy of the pistol.  Actually a very genious addition.

[VOR]

Laisor, you might want to note that those gasses you feel when pulling that stunt will also be searing hot.

[lazs2]

ok... the 44 russian was a centerfire blackpowder round not a rimfire.  Most early blackpowder cartidges were rimfire tho... like the 44 henry.

the nagant used a necked down brass and the cylinder traveled forward when cocked and the neck of the brass would seal into the special throat of the barrel... theory being that it would stop the loss of gas (and decrease in velocity) c aused by the cyl/barrel gap.... a complex solution to an allmost nonexistent problem... especially considering the poor performance of the nagant round in any case.

As for the 45 colt 45 acp accuracy question.... the theory is that the acp round is inherently more accurate because the large 45 colt (originaly blackpowder) case allows the powder charge to be oriented willy nilly in the case...... the theory then goes on to say that the long jump from cyl to barrel throat in a 45 acp fired from a long 45 colt cyl will degrade accuracy..

Whatever the reasons... most agree that both the 45acp and 45 colt can be made to perform about the same from the same gun.

lazs

[wrag]

Hmmm.......

Thought the 45 acp was .451 and the 45 LC was larger?  Like .453 or .454?

Accuracy should suffer some with the smaller diameter bullet passing through the large diameter barrel?

Isn't the .45 LC a longer heavier bullet then the .45 ACP as well?

Just wondering.

I've heard of some very accurate .45 LC's but the sites on the replicas are as bad as the originals LOL

[storch]

I think the accuracy of the .45 LC revolvers I have shot comes from it's natural pointability.  at 25 yards it is just almost impossible to miss a human center of mass type target right about where you should be hitting as long as you take the due time to aim.  those weapons just "feel right".  it's my sidearm of choice in any hunt.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by wrag
Hmmm.......

Thought the 45 acp was .451 and the 45 LC was larger?  Like .453 or .454?

Accuracy should suffer some with the smaller diameter bullet passing through the large diameter barrel?

Isn't the .45 LC a longer heavier bullet then the .45 ACP as well?

Just wondering.

I've heard of some very accurate .45 LC's but the sites on the replicas are as bad as the originals LOL

Actual barrel diameter of a .45 revolver is .451  Its the same whether you are shooting .45 LC, .45 Schofileds or .45 ACP.  The size of the bullet itself is irrellevant, you can buy both ACP and LC in several bullet sizes (weights).  The most common in both is a 200 grain bullet I believe (that could have changed).

The main reason I asked about this in the first place, I know the original S&W Schofields have a shorter cylinder than the LC revolvers.  Revolvers in both flavors were bought by the US Army and issued to troops.  If you have the LC you can shoot the Schofields, they are shorter.  If you have the Schofield gun though, you cant shoot LC because the brass is longer than the cylinder.  The bullet on the end sticks out of the cylinder so it wont rotate in the gun.  If I was planning to load Schofield brass I wouldnt even think twice.  However, the ACP is considerably shorter than either, and I was worried about all that space between the end of the bullet and the barrel opening inside the frame.



Alot of "innacuracies" with the .45 LC rounds in modern guns comes from the fact that its such a long cartridge.  It was originally designed to be filled with black powder (as was the Schofield round).  Modern LC rounds just dont fill the casing with powder.  With black powder, you HAVE to fill the casing.  You cant have any airspace inside the cartridge casing on a black powder load, or it becomes a bomb instead of a bullet.  So if I want to keep the pressures low, I either have to use the long as heck LC cartridge and fill half of it with some kind of filler like cornmeal, or use a shorter cartridge to start with like the ACP.  The extra cylinder distance is what is worrying me.

[wrag]

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Actual barrel diameter of a .45 revolver is .451  Its the same whether you are shooting .45 LC, .45 Schofileds or .45 ACP.  The size of the bullet itself is irrellevant, you can buy both ACP and LC in several bullet sizes (weights).  The most common in both is a 200 grain bullet I believe (that could have changed).

The main reason I asked about this in the first place, I know the original S&W Schofields have a shorter cylinder than the LC revolvers.  Revolvers in both flavors were bought by the US Army and issued to troops.  If you have the LC you can shoot the Schofields, they are shorter.  If you have the Schofield gun though, you cant shoot LC because the brass is longer than the cylinder.  The bullet on the end sticks out of the cylinder so it wont rotate in the gun.  If I was planning to load Schofield brass I wouldnt even think twice.  However, the ACP is considerably shorter than either, and I was worried about all that space between the end of the bullet and the barrel opening inside the frame.



Alot of "innacuracies" with the .45 LC rounds in modern guns comes from the fact that its such a long cartridge.  It was originally designed to be filled with black powder (as was the Schofield round).  Modern LC rounds just dont fill the casing with powder.  With black powder, you HAVE to fill the casing.  You cant have any airspace inside the cartridge casing on a black powder load, or it becomes a bomb instead of a bullet.  So if I want to keep the pressures low, I either have to use the long as heck LC cartridge and fill half of it with some kind of filler like cornmeal, or use a shorter cartridge to start with like the ACP.  The extra cylinder distance is what is worrying me.

Really?

I seem to recall in my reloading manuals that the original .45 long colt was a larger diameter then the .45 ACP????

Hmmmmmmmm.....  That you could fire the .45 acp from the .45 long colt but NOT vice versa????

Guess my memory of my reloading manual needs a refresher.  Haven't looked at em for awhile.  They are pretty old.  But so am I.

[StarOfAfrica2]

If that confuses you, consider that so far I have fired both .45 LC and .45 Schofield rounds through my gun.  It's a .44 Black Powder copy of a 1858 Remington, using a .45 LC conversion cylinder modelled after the original that came out at the end of the civil war.  The .44 BP guns have the same barrel diameter as a modern .45 LC cartridge firearm (.451).  The .45 ACP revolvers I have seen are commonly called 455's, and it could be that they are larger, but I have always been given to understand that .45's are all the same diameter.  I've never reloaded them yet though, so you could be right.  I DO know that there is a company making conversion cylinders that specifically allow my guns to shoot .45 ACP cartridges so the barrel must be able to accomodate them.  But then .004 is a pretty small difference when you are talking about a lead bullet that is hot as blazes anyway, and will likely force itself through the barrel regardless.



The gun I want to use the ACP cartridges in is a brass frame, thats why I need to keep the pressures low.  The LC/Schofield conversion cylinders are not useable with a brass frame revolver because it expands too much with the increased pressure from shooting cartridge loads.  This is my "project" gun.  The ACP conversion is just one of several alterations I intend for this gun.

[wrag]

Every reloading manual I have IIRC list the correct bullet diameter for the .45 acp as .451*  

For some reason I keep remembering the .45LC as being .454?????

Why someone is calling the ACP a 455 beats me.

The Colt and the Schofield are the same diameter IIRC that should be .454.


* IIRC I think I read it is possible to use 452 (lead) and 450 (jacketed/lead) for this cartridge (.45 ACP) with very little to no accuracy loss.  BUT with the 452 diameter bullet watch the brass for pressure related problems!!!!!!!!!!

Such as flattened primer cups, or splitting, or bulging, or seperation bands, or actual seperation of the brass, and excessive leading of the bore.

Have you access to any of the cowboy action ammunition?  IIRC It's purposely loaded to very low pressures and velocities.  They get pretty close to the targets and don't want any ricochets.

Might wanna do a net lookup of cowboy action shooting.  They have allot of info regarding this cartridge, and it's loading.

[lazs2]

well... it does get confusing when you are talking old black powder rounds... The 45 colt in it's earlier versions would often be .454 and have cyl throats to match... by the time it went smokeless, allmost every one was .451  you can tell what you have by "slugging" the barrel and cyl throat using a special kit or just a soft lead slug pounded down the barrel and measured.

The 45acp was never blackpowder and allways was .451...   To add to the confusion... the 455 eley and webly rounds were.... .455 and, in the colt and smith revolvers that were made for them (for the brits who were frightened of guns till hitler made em overcome their fear for a few years).  

The brits sent the guns back so that their citizens wouldn't all shoot each other over traffic jams or kill royals for fun and.... thousands of these guns (along with webleys) had their cyl cut and converted to 45 acp.... a 451 bullet rattling down a 454/455 barrel... I had one and cast .454 slugs for the acp and it improved accuracy by cutting groups in half.

As for "fillers" in 45 colt cases... not sure that is a good idea.   There are several new powders out there that will ignite no consistently not matter what the orientation of the powder charge but...

I think you are talking about the toy gun loads that come out at daisy BB gun speeds from the "guns" used by the cowboy action set.  

I would just use reasonable loads and not care about being competitive... that is the reason the sport started in the first place... fun...  You could also work up a load using 45 colt brass trimmed down to 45 auto rim (a thick rimmed 45 case that would work without moon clips in 45acp cyl) and call it a shoffeild round.

lazs