Revolver question

[StarOfAfrica2]

Interested in thoughts on how well a revolver chambered for .45 LC would take to shooting .45 ACP rounds?  Too much space between the bullet and barrel?  Opinions?

[storch]

Originally posted by FaliFan
I'm not sure you can fire a .45 ACP round from a .45 Colt revolver. The .45 Colt cartridge is rimmed.

there are revolvers chambered for .45 ACP and 9mm you insert the cartridges into "half moon clips"

with regard to the first question, I'm fairly sure cartridge length is of no concern I routinely fire .38 through my .357 revolvers.  what I'm not sure of is diameter there may be a small variance and this could be a problem.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Interested in thoughts on how well a revolver chambered for .45 LC would take to shooting .45 ACP rounds?  Too much space between the bullet and barrel?  Opinions?

As mentioned above, the 45 ACP is a rimless round, and headspaces on the edge of the case at the bullet. A standard 45 Colt chamber will not headspace the 45 ACP and as such will not fire it. Ruger makes a nice Blackhawk single action that has interchangeable cylinders to fire 45 Colt and 45 ACP. The Ruger does not require half moon or full moon clips, as there'd be no way to load it. since the cylinder is fixed. S&W makes a 45 ACP revolver, the model 25-5 I think, that uses the half moon and full moon clips. Those clips by the way make for the fastest reloads possible on a revolver. I saw a model 29 S&W converted to use .308 Winchester cases like a 44 Automag, with full moon clips. It was built for bowling pin matches.

[VOR]

The short answer is no. In your .45 Colt revolver cylinder, the cartridge must headspace on the rim to prevent sliding down the chamber. Additionally, the .45 Colt case diameter at the base (not the rim) is .480" while the .45 ACP has a .470" case diameter.

The only commonly available cartridge/gun combo that safely allows interchangable rounds is a .357 Magnun revolver which can safely fire .38 Special ammo (but not the other way around).

[lazs2]

If you are talking about the various single actions that come with both a 45 acp and a 45 colt cylinder.... I have seen tests that show that there is not much difference in accuracy.   45 colt is sometimes a finicy round to get accuracy out of anyway tho.

I have seen a 45 single action that had three cylinders..  One for 454 casul, one for 45 colt and one for 45 acp.   Strictly speaking the 454 casul cyl would workk for 45 colt.

VOR, There are others.. the 44mag/44special...  44 special, 44 russian  454 casul/45 colt

In 45 acp cylinders you don't need the half/full moon clips except to make the ejector work.   In the case of the single action... it is not a factor since the ejector rod works like poking em out with a pencil.

For using full moon clips there are several companies that will mill the back of your cylinder on double action guns to get the right headspace when using full moon clips on rimmed revolver rounds.

lazs

[Boroda]

Originally posted by lazs2
VOR, There are others.. the 44mag/44special...  44 special, 44 russian  454 casul/45 colt

Lazs, can you please tell me more about that? Or maybe a link? Unfortunately, I don't know anything about Russian/Soviet .44 ammo

The only thing that comes into my mind is Berdan rifle that had a caliber of four and a half lines, 0.45". Or maybe ancient Russian Smith-Wesson revolvers? In Soviet times the only alternative to Nagant 1895 revolver here was a "Czech rebolver" for 38 Special, availible for sport-shooting only.

[storch]

S&W fabricated their excellent #3 (schofield) model revolver for the .44 cal russian round used by the imperial cavalry the "cossacks" these were mfg. in the late 19the century circa1870.  they were ordered by general alexander gorloff the imperial russian army military attache in washington D.C. and around 150,000 examples were produced.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by storch
S&W fabricated their excellent #3 (schofield) model revolver for the .44 cal russian round used by the imperial cavalry the "cossacks" these were mfg. in the late 19the century circa1870.  they were ordered by general alexander gorloff the imperial russian army military attache in washington D.C. and around 150,000 examples were produced.

Thanks! That's what I thought it could be.

This revolvers were quite popular until the end of Civil war (early-20s). IIRC they were considered more powerfull then 1895 Nagant.

Russian sources say it was 0.42", not 44, 10.67mm, 4.2 lines. OTOH Russian "model #1" is a copy of SW model #3.

Hmm. And this article says it used black powder...

SW made 250,000 revolvers for Russian army, some more by German "Ludwig Lewe and Co", and since 1886 they were manufactured at Tula state arms factory.

Hmmm.... A rim-fire cartrige with black powder. Mysterious stuff, indeed.

[Maverick]

Boroda,

The cartriges Laz mentioned all have the same nominal diameter for the cartrige and projectile. The difference is in the length of the shell casing. The 44 Russian is shorter than the special or magnum. The larger the casing the more powder capactiy and power of the cartrige.


If you have a revolver that is chambered for multiple cartriges like the 44 mag / special / russian you are sacrificing velocity and some accuracy with the shorter shells. The bullet has farther to go to get to the rifling in the barrel and can be slightly off center when it gets to the barrel. This may cause a bit of deformation of the shell and cause it to spin just off center of it's weight. Generally the closer to the rifling the projectile is at firing, the more accurate it should be.

As to the .45 long colt vs the 45 acp. I have seen some pistols set up to use both cartriges. The best accuracy should be with the long colt. I imagine the question is econimically driven as ACP rounds are usually cheaper than the long colts. This is a good time to get into reloading them and save more all the way around.

[Morpheus]

Hmmm.... A rim-fire cartrige with black powder. Mysterious stuff, indeed.

This is not uncommon. Esp in the old days.

Some RF cartridges are loaded with black powder even today. 22 blanks for instance.

[VOR]

Originally posted by lazs2

VOR, There are others.. the 44mag/44special...  44 special, 44 russian  454 casul/45 colt
lazs

Oops, absolutely right.

[lasersailor184]

I might have gotten some bad info along the way, but I believe that .38 Special and .357 are practically the same round.  I think you can fire the .38 special through .357's, but not the other way around.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Actually these are all going to be loaded with black powder.  I know of one company that makes a conversion cylinder that specifically fires .45 ACP rounds but I wasnt sure what the difference is.  They dont list any specs.  

The reasons I am interested in using the .45 ACPs are the smaller casing and ease of availability of reloading supplies (and price).  Everything here is at a premium, and the more common it is the lower the price is.  Lots more guys shooting and reloading .45 ACP than .45 LC.  But mostly because I have a gun that requires lower pressures than the one I'm shooting .45 LC out of now and I want to use the smaller .45 ACP cartridges to keep pressure down.  If I use the LC brass, and want to use less powder, I have to use a filler to keep it full.  The ACP is literally half the length of the LC.  I could fill the ACP to the top and not have to use filler.  I was also curious if I could get by with the standard LC cylinder I'm using now instead of the ACP cylinder.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
I might have gotten some bad info along the way, but I believe that .38 Special and .357 are practically the same round.  I think you can fire the .38 special through .357's, but not the other way around.

You are correct.  .357 revolvers fire .38 cartridges, but a .38 revolver will not fire .357s.  A .357 is a Magnum round and has more pressure than a .38.  The frame and parts are usually heavier on the .357 gun and designed to handle a Magnum round.  They also make a .357 round for semi-autos, but its not a magnum round and doesnt have the same ballistics as the revolver version.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Maverick
The cartriges Laz mentioned all have the same nominal diameter for the cartrige and projectile. The difference is in the length of the shell casing. The 44 Russian is shorter than the special or magnum. The larger the casing the more powder capactiy and power of the cartrige.

I understand about the powder capacity

Originally posted by Maverick
If you have a revolver that is chambered for multiple cartriges like the 44 mag / special / russian you are sacrificing velocity and some accuracy with the shorter shells. The bullet has farther to go to get to the rifling in the barrel and can be slightly off center when it gets to the barrel. This may cause a bit of deformation of the shell and cause it to spin just off center of it's weight. Generally the closer to the rifling the projectile is at firing, the more accurate it should be.

In 1895 Nagant this problem is solved by the cylider (drum? "baraban" in Russian)) moving over the rear end of barrel. There were special "sport" Nagant cartriges, about 2 times shorter and with less powder to make it more accurate, also they had lead bullet without jacket. I don't know if it was possible to fire them from ordinary Nagants, there was a special version of a "sports" revolver with short cylinder.

Frankly speaking - I don't understand how decreasing the powder charge made accuracy better. Recoil maybe? From what I learned at "inner ballistics" lectures the main recoil impulse is when a bullet leaves the barrel, and Nagants were not used for fast-shooting for obvious reasons. But standard "sports" cartridge had a lead bullet deep in the case. I saw all this stuff that Mother took from Fathers's uniform pockets when he still practiced sprot-shooting. I wonder if I have a cartrige or two somewhere in my flat now, here for owning illegal ammunition (like one old Nagant cartrige) you may go to jail.