Author Topic: Burning the US Flag  (Read 1089 times)

Offline Skuzzy

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Burning the US Flag
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2005, 02:55:46 PM »
Quite right Sandman.  The flag is a symbol of our nation but that piece of paper defines our nation.

Too bad it is getting mauled by the very people who are supposed to uphold it (i.e. our representatives and leaders).
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Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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Burning the US Flag
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2005, 02:58:40 PM »
I'm opposed to someone burning the flag for anything other than disposal.

However, I am also opposed to creating an amendment barring it.

I do not appreciate it but I do not support restricting rights.
-SW

storch

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Burning the US Flag
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2005, 03:02:06 PM »
I must be ill, I agree with skuzzy on this issue

Offline Gunthr

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Burning the US Flag
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2005, 03:24:46 PM »
Quote
I have just the organization for you. (ACLU) - Sandman


Well, this has been a year of firsts for me.  I sympathised with a gay man who was a witness in a civil trial who was forced to testify against his 15 year, long term live-in "significant other" as to what he told him in private (this is protected speech between hetero spouses),  and now I'm leaning towards not amending the constitution to criminilize burning the flag.  I feel awful about it, too.  But support the ACLU? No.  

They tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater in my opinion... but still, I think we'd miss them if they were gone. ;)
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Gato

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Burning the US Flag
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2005, 03:28:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
I never swore an oath to protect a piece of cloth. Not ever. The veterans did not die for something so cheap as fabric. They did it for a piece of paper not for a symbol. ;)

No, not the cloth, you misunderstood me.  The flag is only the symbol of our nation.  You swore the oath in front of the flag, so you swore it in front of the people of this country.
I too swore that very same oath!  To protect the constitution of the United States...  To swear that oath in front of the whole nation...

When I said they died over the eons for the flag, it was really the country they died for.  It is all about the symbolism.

Offline eagl

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Burning the US Flag
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2005, 03:49:52 PM »
My opinion:

The flag is a symbol that represents ideas.  Those ideas are held to be valuable by most Americans.  Superman pretty much embodies those ideals, and they're deeply embedded in our culture.  You'll see people willing to die to defend those ideas.

What you don't often see however, is a burning desire among Americans to KILL for those ideals, and that's the difference between the average American idealist and certain idealistic groups in other parts of the world.  See, some cultures not only feel that their ideas are valuable, they feel the need to destroy everything that goes against their ideals.  You pretty much have to force that sort of thing down our throats before we board the boats and planes and head off on a crusade.  We even had to be forced into WWII by our leaders and an actual attack on our land, because the majority of Americans frankly couldn't care less about what other people do.

What really bothers me is when people take a symbol and idea, and go around forcing it down other people's throats with violence and coercion, regardless of what symbol it is and what ideas it represents.

I've sworn an oath to defend the constitution of the United States, and that means I'll die to defend the IDEAS that the US is based upon.  I do not owe anything to the SYMBOLS chosen to represent those ideas, and my loyalty to the PEOPLE is transitory and based on the job title and position, not the person themselves.  I defend the constitution, and the person who directs my actions is the President, whoever that may be.

When someone burns the flag, they're destroying a symbol.  They may even be trying to make the statement that they disagree with the ideas that the symbol represents.  But are they attacking the ideas themselves in a manner that needs my intervention in order to somehow save those ideas outlined in the constitution?  I do not think so.  Making political or religious statements, as long as they do not cause harm to people or cause damage to our nation, is specifically protected in the US constitution.  So unless that burning flag is draped around someone or is used in an otherwise illegal fashion such as destroying property, or if the flag isn't yours to burn, then go ahead and burn the flag.

I reserve my own right to make judgements about the people burning flags and act on those judgements in a legal fashion, but acting like a retard or extroverted ignoramus isn't going to earn any response from me other than scorn or maybe pity.  There will always be people who feel the need to protest one thing or another, and they typically have short attention spans.  They'll get tired of burning flags when it's not a hot issue any more, and then they'll turn their attention to something else equally retarded.  If it makes them feel better, and their actions do not harm anyone or break any laws, then they're free to fully express the full glorious boundaries and limitations of their intellect.

It would mildly upset me if the supreme court upheld any law banning the burning of the flag, because it would set a firm legal precedent that laws may be made to forbid the expression of a challenge to an IDEA or SYMBOL, and in the United States of America, that concept is supposed to be protected.  

The ability of the TSA airport screeners to slap large fines and detain passengers who voice ANYTHING critical of the security process without any sort of due process, following a set of laws and regulations which cannot be spoken or released due to "security" concerns, is a much greater threat to American freedoms than any terrorist attack, let alone someone who decides it's time to burn a flag on tv to get some attention.  Where are the vocal protests outside airports challenging this greater threat?  They're too scared to do it because they know they'll be tossed in jail without legal representation and without being able to read the law they're being held under, so they're at home plotting ways to get their flag burning efforts caught on camera.

Fear dominates our security posture, and that's bad.  Why should anyone get upset over a little legal flag burning indended to demonstrate that a symbol is NOT an idea, when there is a real attack against the constitution underway by our own government?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 03:52:55 PM by eagl »
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Offline Gato

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Burning the US Flag
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2005, 07:14:23 PM »
eagl - From what you said, it sounds to  me as if you are active military.  If this is true, I salute you sir!  I would stand up with the salute, but alas that is not possible.
As I said, it sounds as if you are active,if this is true I think you need to go back and reread the proper etiquette for display, handleing and honoring the flag.
If the symbolism of ideas and ideals are open for distruction then you would have no problem with someone burning a replica of the constitution?  As a replica it is not against the law to burn or disfigure the document.  As a member of the military we are sworn to protect it with our lives.  The written word is only a symbol of an idea or ideal.
In short symbols are important, IMO.

Offline Charon

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Burning the US Flag
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2005, 07:21:32 PM »
Hear, Hear! Eagl

Well stated.

Charon

Offline Eagler

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Burning the US Flag
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2005, 08:19:25 PM »


does sunburn count?
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Offline Toad

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Burning the US Flag
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2005, 08:32:32 PM »
It's already been said.

SW puts it in the "Cliff's Notes" form and Eagl is the "unabridged" version.

I agree with both and/or either of them.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Yeager

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Burning the US Flag
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2005, 08:38:23 PM »
ever heard of justifiable homicide?  there are those that think no form of murder is justified, they are wrong.  Capitol punishment, Self defense and abortion are prime examples of lawful murder.  Why cant Sirhan kill off a Kennedy if it is a form of political expression?
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Offline Gunthr

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Burning the US Flag
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2005, 08:47:30 PM »
Quote
The ability of the TSA airport screeners to slap large fines and detain passengers who voice ANYTHING critical of the security process without any sort of due process, following a set of laws and regulations which cannot be spoken or released due to "security" concerns, is a much greater threat to American freedoms than any terrorist attack, let alone someone who decides it's time to burn a flag on tv to get some attention. Where are the vocal protests outside airports challenging this greater threat? They're too scared to do it because they know they'll be tossed in jail without legal representation and without being able to read the law they're being held under, so they're at home plotting ways to get their flag burning efforts caught on camera.



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Eagl, you must go along with security at airports.  Do not pick that time to be anti-establishment.  I hope you understand this.  :)
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Offline Sandman

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Burning the US Flag
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2005, 09:21:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
ever heard of justifiable homicide?  there are those that think no form of murder is justified, they are wrong.  Capitol punishment, Self defense and abortion are prime examples of lawful murder.  Why cant Sirhan kill off a Kennedy if it is a form of political expression?


Killing Kennedy is not an example of lawful murder.

Next!
sand

Offline lasersailor184

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Burning the US Flag
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2005, 10:10:08 PM »
What about retroactive abortions.  Do those count?
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Offline Innominate

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Burning the US Flag
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2005, 10:21:38 PM »
Burning the flag is one of the most obvious forms of political speech one can do. Doing so is covered by the first amendment. This has of course been ruled on by the supreme court.  I don't know about anyone else, but adding constitutional amendments to limit the freedoms we have laid out scares the **** out of me.  Slippery slope and all that stuff.

Anyone who doesn't support the right of flag burnings is no patriot.  You don't have to support the act, but the entire point of the first amendment is to allow people to make statements you don't like.  Public discourse and all that crap.

Then again, what do I know? I'm one of the weirdos that takes the bill of rights more seriously than the most fundamentalist religious ******* takes his favorite holy story book.

In the words of George Carlin,
"The US flag is a symbol. And I'll leave symbols to the symbol minded."


Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
I think one should be able to express their freedom of speech, even if it means burning a flag. However, if they decide to try to express their 1st amendment on my property, I will excercise my 2nd amendment on them.


That's fine.  The 2nd amendment gives you the right to bear arms, not to shoot people for expressing ideas you don't like.  Somehow I don't think they'd mind too much.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2005, 10:29:34 PM by Innominate »