Author Topic: brut power is not always the best answer.  (Read 3067 times)

Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« on: September 11, 2001, 11:18:00 AM »
It's easy to say : We are the strongest nation in the world, let's nuke them. It's definitly easy to want to do it (FScott comes to mind).
First of all, if you nuke a region, or kill a leader, you solve 1 part of the problem. The more you act with violence, the more you fuel violence. Look at the Nazis during WW2. They came in a neighborhood village and executed more than alf of the population, about 2000 people. They did that to retaliate from our local resistance actions there. Did that stoped the local resistance? Off course not, worse than this, it fueled their revenge... not only theirs but all the neighborhood lacal resistance too.

As far as wacking the leaders... Why Kadafi, Yasser Arrafat, Saddam are still alive? If you kill them you make a martyr, the whole country from the dedicated terrorist to the local mother will want revenge.

Also, from my days in the Intelligence, and the part usually people hate to listen : We comunicate with them. We know who they are, what they do, and by "negociating" with them we keep all their army under control... (till the Intell misjudge like today). If you kill a leader, a new one arises right away, a new one where you know very little on his habits, desires, capabilities, limits.
A new one who's less "controlable".

Terrorist groups are either under-estimated or over-estimated. What does it take to fly a 767 in a tower? Eck, even a 10 year old can log a couple of 767s hours in MSFS, learn about the FMSs to hit the "direct" button. the 767s, 757s series were described as very complexly automated, we pilot knows that those glass cockpits are there to be easier to read than all the analog guages and the FMS are "click and go".

That's a bit off subject   :o

What is the best way to hit terrorists? I'm not a terrorisum expert, and it's not "so simple". I think that financial is one, who finances those guys? How can you "deal" with people who finance them? Put economical pressure on them, to discipline them or shut them off. People who join the organizations, how can it be prevented, controled? In France, it usually go like this : they drive white Mercedes, and cruise the poor neighborhood. They gather bored 18 year olds and start to contact them during parties and social reunions. Like drug dealers. They show all the whealth they have and say :" look what my group did for me". Then they reward the target with a better life style and start to educate them. the more they are whilling to be educated, the more they earn.
And I mean real education like college, not "this is how you kill". Added to that, they off course add the group personal ideology. At the end, you have an educated, endoctrined potential terrorist.
What always makes me freack out, is that they make sense. Don't think that those people go die in suicide attack because they are too stupid to see "the truth". The group vision of our society is as valid of our vision of theirs.

Bottom line, "nuke those motherF" is probably not the best thing to do. Off course, to comfort and satisfy the public opinion, some poor guys in the middle of the desert more or less related with international terrorisum will be blasted... So the world will be able to sleep well and say :"Yeah, we are the best nation in the world, don't piss us off little toejam".
Dat jugs bro.

Terror flieger since 1941.
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Offline minus

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2001, 11:33:00 AM »
:(  that very bad what hapaned,  but is the quiestion whta a hell doing NSA CIA  and other services ? first time at 1997 some philipine terorist group haz similar planes they was thx to god eliminated, after if the guity on thta atack are religios groupes, are you know who finance them ? is it paradoxal !

cut  the terorist resources !!!! cut them on short othervise only genocide will stop them

Offline Wlfgng

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2001, 11:37:00 AM »
Early American history:   we didn't let anyone get away with anything.. 'Walk softly but carry a big stick'.  it worked.

Recent American history:  negoitate, go easy, forgive and foget, etc etc..

result:  more terrosim and viloent crime.

When are we as Americans going to take back our country !?

consequence is the best teacher.

Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2001, 11:41:00 AM »
WlfGng... example and dates?
Dat jugs bro.

Terror flieger since 1941.
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Offline Voss

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2001, 11:54:00 AM »
Neither, the CIA nor NSA is equipped to deal with this sort of thing (given that this is not an attack sponsored by some extant Government). It is highly premature to point out blame, or fault, at anyone.

Offline batdog

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2001, 11:55:00 AM »
Frenchy... this isnt a normal terrorist attack. Your prob looking at easily over 5000+ people dead. This is on a scale of Pearl Harbor or worse. This IS an act of war. The indiv's who did this can NOT be bargined with. They have forced us in to cornor now we must strike back.

 Like I said in my post in the OC...they royaly diddlyed themselves and every other terrorist organization out there. They have given us the focus we lost after the cold war. We have a foe to fight... the Intel community and Miltary will get thier toys now... we're in anthor war again, maybe not so cold this time ethier.

xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Wlfgng

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2001, 11:58:00 AM »
dates:  WWII - after Pearl Harbor.
The attitude of the country was different.  We, as a country, stuck up for each other.
Criminal justice was just that.. just.  Today it's more a scenario where the criminal uses the system to his own ends instead of protecting the vicitm.

America as a whole is in the same state as the legal system.
Although I detest 'witch hunts', I feel that the present state of low or no viliglance is naive and dangerous.

The country is wide open for terrorist attack.
How often have you really been checked when boarding and aircraft?
Do you really know who else is on the flight, or car, or train etc...

Offline Rocket

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2001, 11:59:00 AM »
Amen Frenchy and Voss  :)

S!

Rocket
  :)

Offline Wlfgng

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2001, 12:00:00 PM »
the sleeping Giant may have awakened....

United States of America.

I'll have to add that I agree and hope that the country doesn't give in to the 'witch hunt' mentality.  
If we can prove responsibility then all bets are off.. punish them !
something appropriate for all the innocent lives lost and affected.

[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Wlfgng ]

Offline SFRT - Frenchy

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2001, 12:18:00 PM »
WlfGng, WW2 is your only example? Because it was totaly different, it was a country who attacked, not an organization which is still unknown now. can you condam the country who "host" the organization to total war?
let say that the KKK is bombing Tien Amen square and kills 3000 people with a portable nuke devise. So it's ok for China to launch a couple of Nuclear missiles toward USA?

As far as the security, FYI, we received in our airports a note telling the security was reinforced for 3 weeks now. We each (flying and ground personel, shop attendants, customr service) received a training. Airports and airlines are doing their best. Knowing who's on the flight, how he came there, what is his back ground is possible. But you will eart yourself to a huge price increase in the plane ticket. Probably even more flight delays and worse public opinion.
How often I eard travellers (mostly Americans in the US) complaining about Big Brother.

WlfGng, the purpose of my thread was to try to demonstrate that extremist solutions are easy to pop out of the mouth of angry people, but the feasibility is something else.

Batdog, I have to agree. The young generation concerns are definitly if the car they got for their 16th birthday is cool enought and this SOB teacher didn't want to let him enter the class because he was 45min late. Eck! In North Korea, they have a 8 year mandatory TOD this the military. Too much "easy life" made people lost foccus. I was squeaking of the lack of value/honor/responsability of French... when I arrived in Florida and I saw all those fat people squeaking about the AC too hot in the supermarket, or being out of notfatfreegoatmilkstrawberyfl avored, or having to wait 5 minutes at the bank standing up... WOW! Things our ancester fought for to give us a better life style have been forgotten.
Those things are normal to us now, and it's sad that only terrorist attacks and wars refresh our memories.
Dat jugs bro.

Terror flieger since 1941.
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Offline Wlfgng

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2001, 12:26:00 PM »
No it's not the only example.  I don't feel like doing the research.
Besides, it's a moot point.

We, as a nation, have been attacked and I tire of this 'open arms' crap.  
The real world, as witnessed today, has intruded upon our complacency as a nation.
It's time to wake up and become aware.

The present state of airport security is a joke.  
You can't expect Airlines to provide only security.  If you land at a 'foriegn' airport you will notice the greatly increased security compared to the U.S.
As shown by today's acts.. the present security is NOT ENOUGH!

I agree that a whole country isn't to blame.. extremists are usualy renegade types.
I'm not saying we should punish a whole country.. but instead, find out the organizations involved and punish them!

Increased vigilance, and appropriate consequences!

I'm sure people will whine about how inconvenient security is. etc etc.
The alternative is worse...

Offline BigJim

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2001, 12:34:00 PM »
I believe that any country that has "harboured" these criminals should be required to "spend" the resources to apprehend these people and turn them over to us for "justice".  We are not alone in this every "freedom" loving country should be outraged and willing to bring these criminals to justice, LET THEM HAVE NO PLACE ON THE PLANET TO HIDE.

Offline CavemanJ

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2001, 01:02:00 PM »
I'll go along with that BigJim, but only after it's been proven that the G'ment is helping the group hide from us.  That should be considered an act of war.  Dinnae someone say in another thread that Afghanistan is awfully nervous right now, and that Laden has been hiding in Afghanistan?  If that's where he is I say the Afghan's either help us nail him (if he's the culprit) or we nail them for hiding the bastard.  And, of course, nail the bastard to the wall at the same time.

But let's find out for sure who our target is before we start issuing frag orders.  Enough innocents have died already.

On a side note, any group that has the cojones to claim responsibility needs to feel the wrath of the US.  If they want to take the credit with all the people who hate the US, they should face the consquences as well.  Each group that claims responsibility gets it.  Period.

Offline mason22

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2001, 01:08:00 PM »
evil begets evil

Offline Wlfgng

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brut power is not always the best answer.
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2001, 01:10:00 PM »
justice is evil ??
NOT

This is evil in the form of unprecedented cowardly attacks on innocent civillians.

bringing them to justice is NOT evil.

IMO letting them 'go' so they can cause more death would be the greater evil.

Sometimes life is difficult and there are no easy answers.  this is one of those times.

[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Wlfgng ]