Author Topic: A poor choice.. the Seafire (Read 2493 times)

Kweassa · « **on:** July 02, 2005, 02:35:31 PM »

Hey guys, consider this an official Spit whine. But it's not a whine about performance but rather a situational thing.

If there's just one plane I think that should never have been in AH, that's the Seafire.

I know that the MA is not replicating WW2, nor is an AH2 dedicated 'WW2 sim'. However, still the game gets its charisma and mythos from recreating certain aspects of WW2 combat that appeals to many people. Historicity is not everything, but it still means something....

Why is the Seafire in here in the first place?

The existence of the Seafire totally warps the image of WW2 naval warfare in that a plane with no significance at all, is actually the most popular and overused carrier-based plane by far.

When we see an enemy TG approach the coastal field, we get to see Seafires. Ofcourse many people do fly the Hellcat or the Corsair.. but mostly as jabo platforms. Let's admit it guys, for the vast majority of the normal pilots, the Seafire is THE CV plane.

IMO, this is like putting in the Bf109T. A non-significant CV plane that was wrongly introduced, taking all the spotlight from the planes that should really have them.

The greatest (and about the only real) naval warfares on a regular scale, were between the IJN and the USN. The sea, is the Hellcat/Corsair's turf, or at least, IMO, should be. Even the Royal Navy themselves, used vastly larger numbers of Corsairs and Martlets than their own Seafires.

I just can't understand why HTC decided to put in the Seafire in the first place.. and I hate it that the preferred fighter of the Aces High Navy is a Seafire.

I'm sure that they won't ever take out a model from the game. But if that be ever the case, I hope that they at least go back to the 12+ boost for the Seafire, since we have a 16+ boost Spit5.

spitfiremkv · « **Reply #1 on:** July 02, 2005, 03:05:02 PM »

a poor choice? that aircraft fought in WW2 in relatively large numbers.

You say nobody flies the Hellcat or Corsair, well that's because they are inferior to the Seafire just like the P47 and P38 and P51 are inferior to the Spitfire.

Kweassa · « **Reply #2 on:** July 02, 2005, 03:12:28 PM »

So how many Seafires Mk.IIs fought in the war?

Toad · « **Reply #3 on:** July 02, 2005, 03:16:25 PM »

Read somewhere the Seafire had a 16/1 k/d over the Zero in the Pac.

Type 340-Seafire Mk IB 340 were built

Type 357- Seafire Mk IIC 372 were built

Type 358- Seafire Mk III 1218 were produced in total.

Type 337- Seafire XV 450 were produced.

Type 395- Seafire XVII (Mk 41) 233 were produced.

About 3-4 other types that varied between 20-90 produced.

More than some other aircraft we have.

Kweassa · « **Reply #4 on:** July 02, 2005, 03:44:33 PM »

... and that compares how with the number of Martlets, Hellcats and Corsairs the Royal Navy used?

When the war ended the Royal Navy was still being equipped with Seafire XVs. The rest of the types afterwards were post-war aircraft.

Excerpts from the FAA Archives

*total 1172 Wildcats received during 1940-1945

*252 F6F-3s supplied to the Royal Navy as Hellcat I

*930 F6F-5 supplied to the Royal Navy as Hellcat II.

*Ultimately, fourteen FAA front-line squadrons equipped with F6Fs.

*received 2, 012 Corsairs from the USA, initially under Lend-Lease, which equipped 19 squadrons

* 370 F4U-1Ds were delivered to New Zealand.

..

The number of Royal Navy Corsairs alone, are more than entire WW2-era Seafires combined.

gatso · « **Reply #5 on:** July 02, 2005, 03:58:55 PM »

I recommend the following book as essential Seafire reading. Its well written and gives a good overall view of what a Seafire pilot could expect to get up to during the whole of WW2.

link

Needless to say, I think your wrong.

Cheers

Gatso

Kweassa · « **Reply #6 on:** July 02, 2005, 04:19:16 PM »

I didn't meant 'insignificance' as a disrespectfulness towards the pilots who would have served in squads equipped with Seafires, gatso.

I'm just saying that despite everything, still the impact of Seafires as carrier-based planes for the Royal Navy, was insignificant when the entire number of Wildcats, Hellcats, and Corsairs were more than three fold the numbers of Seafires in the Royal Navy.

Toad · « **Reply #7 on:** July 02, 2005, 04:39:23 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
The number of Royal Navy Corsairs alone, are more than entire WW2-era Seafires combined. [/B]

The number of Seafires alone are reasonably close to all the rest combined. They were in the invasion of Morroco and Sicily, did most of the CAP over the beach at Salerno, active in the Far East with an admirable k/d over the Zero (albeit a low total), 4 squadrons particiapted in D-day and three squadrons of Seafires which covered the landings in Rangoon and Penang and the raids on the oil fields in Sumatra.

It's not like they weren't active.

Squire · « **Reply #8 on:** July 02, 2005, 04:52:19 PM »

You have 3 countries fighting with German, US, Russian and British a/c, and your getting all technical about how many Seafires fought in WW2? I dont get it.

It saw action with the East Indies Fleet, British Pacific Fleet, 2nd TAF in Normandy, Norway and the Med.

How many were used operationally? well certainly comparable to the F4U-1C, or the Ta-152, N1K-2, or the Me 262, or the Me 163, or the Arado 234. < All of which are in the game. If your counting.

Most of the RN Fleet Carriers operated the type at some point in the war. Illustrious, Indomitable, Indefatigable, Implacable, I wont list them all. Many of the smaller RN Carriers also used the type. Yes, they also used the Corsair, F6F, F4F in some #s.

...Btw the Seafire IIc (the one in AH) only ran at +16 lbs boost, it was a version derived from the Spitfire Vc. There is no "+12 lbs boost" Seafire IIc for HTC to "go back too".

Seems your gripe is really about the CVs being multi-nation "generic" and the fact you dont like Spitfires. Thats fine, fair enough. Thats the real issue you should be addressing. Maybe some players dont like the fact that you can always launch rocket and bomb carrying Jabo F6Fs and F4Us from CVs and never take IJN types?

I think you do have a point in regards to the plane set on the CVs, I would like to see nation specific CVs, but thats not likely to happen untill TOD comes out.

Toad · « **Reply #9 on:** July 02, 2005, 04:54:13 PM »

And all that aside, do you ever remember them taking a plane out of the game once it was in?

onions4u · « **Reply #10 on:** July 02, 2005, 05:54:08 PM »

most numerous seafire was the mk lll, it had fold back wings, introduced in 1943 and could carry up to a 500 lb bomb on the belly and two 250lb bombs one on each wing. The mk lll was used
at the Salerno landings By the end of the war Seafires equipped 12 frontline units of the Fleet Air arm. Eight of these units used the mk llls

FDutchmn · « **Reply #11 on:** July 02, 2005, 08:26:07 PM »

I donno Kweassa... to me, there seems to be a mix up on the definition of how "significance" is to be measured. Is it justified by the numbers used or just an impression left in history? It seems to me that in AH it is the latter... in the mind of HT.

Kweassa · « **Reply #12 on:** July 03, 2005, 01:55:01 AM »

Well FD, I guess it's just a gripe about how the Spitfire is dominant in all areas of the game. (dominant in numbers)

I frankly don't mind seeing many of them as land-based fighters... but seeing even carrier based Spitfires.. where its usage is far greater than the any of the true "blue" planes, just seems wrong.

Did the Seafires see combat? Were they active? Sure they were.

But even in the Royal Navy themselves, the planes assigned for fleet defender role, and became the true backbone of its carrier based fighters, were the F4F, F6F and the F4U-1.

Look at the numbers Toad posted.

The real majority of Seafires were the MkIIC(what we have) and the F.MkIII. The Seafire squads were still being requipped with XVs when the war ended, and the XV production continued after the war also. The XVII is a post-war plane.

Basically, it's about 1500 Seafires vs 4400 Wildcats, Hellcats, and Corsairs.

Sure, not all 4400 of them were in service at the same time, but that goes same for the Seafire - not all 1500 were in the service at the same time. During any time line, pick out the Royal Navy squadrons and one would see that the numbers and roles of 'blue' planes greatly outnumbered the Seafires.

I guess it all comes down to that, when I see task force carriers, I want to see swarms of Hellcats and Corsairs taking of from them.. not swarms of Seafires with a couple of Hogs or Hellcats crashing into target field in a suicidal fashion.

Kev367th · « **Reply #13 on:** July 03, 2005, 02:32:40 AM »

Be prepared to whine even more then, if, after the remodel we get the Seafire L III (most produced) with the 50M or 55M Merlin in place of the current Seafire IIc.
L III has all the great fighter qualities of the IIc but with the addition of a total 1000lb bomb load (1x500 center, 2x250 wings)

Dominant in numbers?
Up to the 22nd of last month according to HTs figures

La7 - 22736
N1K - 19411
Spit V - 14953
Tiffy - 14221
Seafire - 14148
P51D - 11158
109G10 - 10789
Spit IX - 9866

So where do you come up with "dominant in numbers"?

Furball · « **Reply #14 on:** July 03, 2005, 05:54:03 AM »

i think this whine is ridiculous.

"OH NO!! ANOTHER PLANE IS TAKING THE SPOTLIGHT OFF MY PRECIOUS AMERICA PLANE!!! TAKE IT AWAY!!!!"