One of my favorite Cold War aircraft

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Boroda
First: according to official version it was SK troops that attacked first. Anyway - it's not a proven fact that DPRK started a war.

Is that the Soviet official version?
 ........

It is hard to get a 2:1 ratio when there was on average only ~100 Sabres(fighters) in Korea at any one time.

Soviet Air Order of Battle - Korea 1950-53

Courtesy of CW2 Stephen L. Sewell

            64th Independent Fighter Aviation Corps -- GEN-LT I. V. Belov (Nov 1950 - Oct 1951)
                                                                                           GEN- LT G. Lobov (Oct 1951 - Oct 1952)
                                                                                           GEN-LT S.V. Slyusarev) (Nov 52 - Dec 54)

        32nd Fighter Aviation Division (COL G. Grokhovetskii) (Sep 52 - Jul 53)
        224th Fighter Aviation Regiment (?)
        535th Fighter Aviation Regiment (? M. Muryaev)
        913th Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC V. Marchenko)

        37th Fighter Aviation Division (COL A.I. Khalutin) (Jul 53 - end)
        236th Fighter Aviation Regiment
        282nd Fighter Aviation Regiment
        940th Fighter Aviation Regiment

        97th Fighter Aviation Division (COL A. Shevtsov) (Jan 52 - Jul 53)
        16th Fighter Aviation Regiment
        148th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment

        100th Fighter Aviation Division (Jul 53 - end)
        9th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment
        731st Fighter Aviation Regiment
        735th Fighter Aviation Regiment

        133rd PVO Fighter Aviation Division (COL Komarov) (May 52 -Jul 53)
        147th Guards Special Purpose Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC M. Studilin)
        415th Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC Shevelyev)
        726th Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC Chizh)
        578th Fighter Aviation Regiment (Naval Aviation) (attached)

        190th Fighter Aviation Division (COL Kornilov) (Feb 52 - Jul 53)
        256th Fighter Aviation Regiment
        494th Fighter Aviation Regiment
        821st Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC G.F. Dmitryuk)

        216th PVO Fighter Aviation Division (COL B. Yeremin) (Feb 52 - Jul 53)
        518th Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC Dobrov)
        676th Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC I. Gorbunov)
        878th Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC Dronov)
        781st Fighter Aviation Regiment (Naval Aviation)(attached)

        303rd Fighter Aviation Division (GEN-MAJ G. Lobov/GEN- MAJ A.Kumanichkin) (Aug 51 - Dec 51)
        17th Fighter Aviation Regiment (MAJ G.I.. Pulov)
        18th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC Belostotskiy)
        523rd Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC Karasev)

        324th Fighter Aviation Division (COL I.N. Kozhedub) (Apr 51 - Feb 52)
        176th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC S.F. Vishnyakov)
        196th Fighter Aviation Regiment (COL Ye. Pepelyaev)

        351st Independent Fighter Aviation Regiment (Night) (LTC I. Yefimov) (Jul 51 - Feb 53)

        298th Independent Fighter Aviation Regiment (Night) (LTC Vasil'yev) (Feb 53 - Jul 53)

         

        Non-Flying Elements of the 64th IAK In Korea 1950-1953

        28th Antiaircraft Artillery Division (COL Angelov) (Jan 53 - End)
        503rd Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment (LTC Kletsko)
        505th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment (LTC N.F. Shandryuk)
        507th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment (LTC Samoilov)

        35th Antiaircraft Artillery Division (Jan 53 - End)
        508th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment
        513th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment

        87th Antiaircraft Artillery Division (COL A.I. Varlygo) (Mar 51 - Jan 53)
        151st Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment (LTC Bystrov)
        1777th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment (LTC Medyantsev)

        92nd Antiaircraft Artillery Division (Mar 51 - Jan 53)
        666th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment
        667th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment

        16th Aviation Technical Services Division (COL V.S. Zaitsev) (Jul 53 - Dec 54)
        180th Independent Airfield Technical Support Battalion
        277th Independent Airfield Technical Support Battalion
        838th Independent Airfield Technical Support Battalion
        854th Independent Airfield Technical Support Battalion
        859th Independent Airfield Technical Support Battalion

        18th Aviation Technical Services Division (COL M.P. Mironovich) (Jun 51 - Jul 53)

        10th Independent Searchlight Artillery Regiment (COL Ye.A. Belenko) (Mar 51 - Jan 53)

        20th Independent Searchlight Artillery Regiment (Jan 53 - Dec 54)
        65th ODRSO
        61st Independent Antiaircraft Illumination Company

        1406th Hospital for Infectious Diseases (COL A. Gorelik)

        8th Mobile Field Hospital
        534th Radiographic Department
        70th Independent Decontamination Platoon
        99th Independent Decontamination Platoon
        18th Plague Prevention Detachment
        357th Medical Epidemic Laboratory

        81st Independent Communications Company (Nov 1950 - Apr 1953)
        727th Independent Communications Battalion (Apr 1953 - Dec 1954)

        133rd Independent Radio Technical Battalion (Apr 1953 - Dec 1954)
        61st Independent Radio Technical Company (Radio Navigation) (Apr 1953 - Dec 1954)
        114th Radio Technical Regiment (OSNAZ) Special Task Force

         

        Supporting Soviet Air Order of Battle - Korea
        (Units supporting the 64th Independent Fighter Aviation Corps - November 1950 - March 1951)

        Commanding General (Aviation) Far East Military District = GEN-LT S. Krasovskiy - to Fall 1951

            83rd Independent Fighter Aviation Corps (PVO) (Laodung Peninsula)
            (GEN-LT Rykachev - Fall 1951 to July 1953)

        28th Fighter Aviation Division (COL A.V. Aleyukhin) (Nov 50 - Feb 51)
        67th Fighter Aviation Regiment
        139th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment (COL Keleninikov)

        153rd Fighter Aviation Division
        351st Fighter Aviation Regiment (transferred to the 64th IAK - June 1951)

        55th Independent Fighter Aviation Corps (PVO) (Maj-.Gen P.F. Batyskiy) (Primors'kye Military Region)

        149th Fighter Aviation Division
        3rd Fighter Aviation Regiment
        18th Fighter Aviation Regiment
        582md Fighter Aviation Regiment

         

        67th Fighter Aviation Corps (Far East Military District)

        Moscow Miltary District Units Transferred to the Far East for Immediate Support

        50th Fighter Aviation Division (LTC A.V. Pashkevich) (Dec 50 - Feb 51)
        29th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment (Guards Major D.V. Virich)
        177th Fighter Aviation Regiment (LTC Teren'yev)
        7th Air Regiment (PLAAF) (attached)

        151st Guards Fighter Aviation Division (COL Sapozhnikov) (Nov 50 - Feb 51)
        28th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment
        72nd Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment

        Soviet formations were made up of Para (element) of two aircraft; two Pary made a Zveno (flight); two to three Zvena made an Eskadra (squadron). Three Eskadry made a Polk (Regiment), two to three Polki a Diviziya (division), and two or more Divisii, a Korpus or Corps. Combat was normally fought by two or three Pary in a group; squadrons would also cross attach Zvena when needed.

        This only applied to the forces in Korea, as elsewhere the normal number was three flights per squadron and three regiments per division. Thus in Korea a division could, and did, often consist of as few as 48 aircraft rather than the 108 found elsewhere.

        The AA divisions had a variety of weapons. The 87th had 59 85mm guns and 56 37mm weapons; the 92nd had 96 85mm and 84 37mm guns. The units at that time appear to have been organized into four gun batteries and twelve gun battalions. The 87th was probably understrength.

        The searchlight regiments each had 36 projectors, organized as per the weapons in four projector batteries and twelve projector battalions.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Boroda
Also please remember why UN passed a resolution allowing Americans to invade. Chinese representative was not allowed to attend a Security Council meeting. Damn! That's how wars start... Oh, sorry, noone cares about UN any more, aggressors sit in the SC and noone complains...

More of your Soviet version of history???

The western powers gained a United Nations mandate for action because the Soviets were boycotting the Security Council over the admission of Mongolia to the UN while the (Nationalist controlled) Republic of China held the Chinese seat — the Republic of China refused to acknowledge the independence of Mongolia, and thus blocked its entry into the UN. Without the Soviet veto and with only Yugoslavia abstaining, the UN voted to aid South Korea.

[JTs]

Ripsnort;
RB47's flew pre and post strike photo missions in veit nam. will try and find a pic of one at da nang in 1970.
JT

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
More of your Soviet version of history???

The western powers gained a United Nations mandate for action because the Soviets were boycotting the Security Council over the admission of Mongolia to the UN while the (Nationalist controlled) Republic of China held the Chinese seat — the Republic of China refused to acknowledge the independence of Mongolia, and thus blocked its entry into the UN. Without the Soviet veto and with only Yugoslavia abstaining, the UN voted to aid South Korea.

Of course! This is Boroda we're speaking of! He'd have made a great propoganda minister until the old regrime! Thats a compliment, Boroda.

[skernsk]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Lessee.. North Korea invades South Korea backed by China and USSR. US/UN moves to repel invaders, North drives defenders to very southern end of the peninsula. Then Mac's landings at Inchon cut NK supplylines, NK's pushed back to the Yalu. The Chinese join in.. with over a million troops. US/UN pushed back to the original border.

You could call it a stalemate... looks to me like the US/UN won. Borders are the same as pre-invasion. The side who's goals were thwarted is the North's.

Hang, what you are saying is that you won the battle, but I'm sorry, aint nobody won that war.  

It is interesting to see history from both sides.  You guys should just stop now, it is like trying to convince an athiest there is a god.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by skernsk
Hang, what you are saying is that you won the battle, but I'm sorry, aint nobody won that war.  

It is interesting to see history from both sides.  You guys should just stop now, it is like trying to convince an athiest there is a god.

If North Korea won.. why ain't they in Seoul? Why is South Korea, if they (we) lost still a democracy? Enh?

And there is too a God. He's you, and me, and that rock over there...

[skernsk]

Originally posted by Hangtime
If North Korea won.. why ain't they in Seoul? Why is South Korea, if they (we) lost still a democracy? Enh?

Did the North Surrender?  Show me the documents.  I'll agree that the North pushed South into S.K.  The North after initial success was pushed back after some heavy fighting.  And the 'battle' was won.

To find a peaceful solution to the conflict I assume a ceasefire was agreed upon.  I have to admit my ignorance Mr. Hang as I don't know 100% of the reason why they did not go for the jugular.

Was it because WW2 was still fresh in the minds of America and the politians did not want to risk losing the Presidency?  Was there a change in office during the Korean war?  Didn't they ****can MacArthur just after the NK's started to retreat?

But I assume that you know the Korean conflict isn't 'Officially' over.   And therefor I cannot give you the 'W' for that one.  


'Alright, we'll call it a draw'

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by skernsk
Did the North Surrender?  Show me the documents.  I'll agree that the North pushed South into S.K.  The North after initial success was pushed back after some heavy fighting.  And the 'battle' was won.

To find a peaceful solution to the conflict I assume a ceasefire was agreed upon.  I have to admit my ignorance Mr. Hang as I don't know 100% of the reason why they did not go for the jugular.

Was it because WW2 was still fresh in the minds of America and the politians did not want to risk losing the Presidency?  Was there a change in office during the Korean war?  Didn't they ****can MacArthur just after the NK's started to retreat?

But I assume that you know the Korean conflict isn't 'Officially' over.   And therefor I cannot give you the 'W' for that one.  


'Alright, we'll call it a draw'

LOL.. ok, ok, I give!

Regarding the reason we didn't 'go for the 'jugular'.. we already had NK subdued & occupied when the Chinese crossed the Yalu to get us the hell off their border. MacArthur wanted China dealt with right then and there and asked for the keys to the Nuclear Arsenal.

Truman, knowing that the muscle behind China was the USSR (at that time) correctly forbade Mac's smacking the Chinese (in China) with either nukes or conventional weapons, which is why the war was not prosecuted to a normal conclusion. Had Mac used any weapons north of the Yalu to stem 'the yellow hordes' crossing the border, we'd have had to roll to Moscow via Peking to put an end to it... and most of the terrain in between would still be glowing.. along with a few US cities.

*sigh*

Mighta been worth it. Boroda would be just a Ukranian.

[6GunUSMC]

We should have rearmed the Germans and marched east until we cleaned out everything from the aleutians to the south china sea.  Churchill was the only major power leader of the day that had it right.  Roosevelt locked us into a cold war through treaties with the criminal stalin.  Sadly too many people forgot about the cold war within days of the fall of the Berlin wall.  We still have the Totalitarian regime in place in communist china that we trade with daily... makes no sense especially since they continue to harass and threaten free China who has been a staunch ally from the very beginning.  They say a stitch in time saves 9.... we should have made a few extra stitches on that wound when we closed it up!

[Staga]

See Rule #4

[Boroda]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Is that the Soviet official version?

It was. Now I don't know a new version that, as most of our new inventions in historical science, has to comply with the popular Western thesis that Russians are evil bloothirsty savages.

Originally posted by MiloMorai
It is hard to get a 2:1 ratio when there was on average only ~100 Sabres(fighters) in Korea at any one time.

LOL! They rotated units from Japan and other bases.

And 64th IAK had only MiG-15s, while "UN" had thousands of jet fighters, bombers and attack planes.

2:1 ratio between Sabres and MiGs is believable, but mostly when freshly-rotated Soviet regiments encountered them for the first times, especially the second "shift", that initially flew MiG-15prim, because first "shift" left their MiG-15bis to PLAC airforce.

American "official" kill records are an utter bull****. Sabres killed more MiGs then USSR ever delivered to Korea

Also - you have a beautiful practice in concealing losses. To understand it - please, compare your "combat losses" in Korea to a number of rescue helicopter missions. You'll be surprised

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Soviet Air Order of Battle - Korea 1950-53

Skipped an impressive list of units.

You have to understand that every group of units spent 6-9 months on front-line, sometimes having only three regiments with half of flight personell and machines. At the worst time about 100 MiGs were operational. As I posted above - sometimes medics withdrew pilots from active flights because of nervous and physical exaustion. For 6-9 months Soviet units had to fight without getting replacements.

[lada]

Originally posted by -ammo-
My uncle flew those.  More often he lived in an alert facility for days on end waiting on the word to strike the Soviet Union.

How does he like current situation ?

[lada]

Originally posted by Boroda
First: according to official version it was SK troops that attacked first. Anyway - it's not a proven fact that DPRK started a war.

USSR only sent advisors, and an anti-aircraft corps to China. Main aid went from China, not USSR.
 

That remind me German/Polish probem.

Germany wanted to start war with polish but they had no proper excuse for their people. So german soldiers toke polish uniforms and attacked german boarder post on Polish/Czech boarder.

So germany were officialy attacked by poland and people of germany didnt have problem with idea of "liberating poland from evil jews"

as easy as 9/11

[Boroda]

Originally posted by lada
That remind me German/Polish probem.

Germany wanted to start war with polish but they had no proper excuse for their people. So german soldiers toke polish uniforms and attacked german boarder post on Polish/Czech boarder.

So germany were officialy attacked by poland and people of germany didnt have problem with idea of "liberating poland from evil jews"

as easy as 9/11

Lada, the situation in Korea was quite different, as far as I understand it.

Look: in 1948 US occupational forces stage "democratic elections" in SK, instead of withdrawing together with Soviet troops and leaving Korea as allies did in Austria. A puppet government is installed in the South. Declared RoK claims authority over the whole Korea. As an answer to this provocation DPRK is declared.

After multiple provocations something happens and DPRK troops crash Southern defence counter-attacking and violating Soviet recommendations to avoid hostilities at all costs. SK leaders probably relied on Western assistance, while Kim Ir Sen was warned that he'll not get any direct aid from USSR.

As for sending Soviet air-defence units to Korean border - I think it can be justified by American attacks on Soviet objects in Far East, like an attack on Sukhaya Rechka airfield in summer 1950.

[Skydancer]

This one was quite good.


Not bad either


A classic


We used to get buzzed by these as kids living near Wattisham in Suffolk