Author Topic: If Roe v. Wade falls  (Read 1177 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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If Roe v. Wade falls
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2005, 07:48:56 PM »
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Originally posted by Yeager
Access to abortion must always be made available to those unfortunate enough to require it.  The only way to make abortion unnecessary is to live your life with high moral values and to raise your children to believe that killing the unborn must only be pursued under the most dire of circumstances.  Teach your kids to be better at life than you, always a good goal.

:aok The biggest problem is, since the Peace, Love Dope generation, its tough to even get parents to THINK about their kids during their busy lives and bring them up with good morals.(With or without religion)

Offline texace

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If Roe v. Wade falls
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2005, 08:51:49 PM »
It's not easy to make the choice of whether or not to go through with a proceedure like this. It's wrong to assume it is. Abortion is not and never will be birth control...it is not God's "White Out." It doesn't just make the "problem" go away.

I did what I had to do after exhausting all availible options. There wasn't anywhere else to go. If makes me a murderer, then I guess that's what I'll be.

I live in regret every day over that. I on;y speak about my situaiton because it's the only experience I have with it. It took me three weeks to stop crying myself to sleep. It's not an easy doing, no matter how you put it.

Abortion, killing a baby, it makes no difference how you put it...it's not an easy choice. I chose what I thought would be the best option, considering I love my fiancée and I know that we can try again after she gets better. It wasn't fair to my daughter, but I guess life isn't fair sometimes. Had they both died, we'd still be in the same situation, but with one less person.

It's the lesser of two evils...:(

Offline Seagoon

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If Roe v. Wade falls
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2005, 08:58:18 PM »
Hi Nash,

Ok, the following is merely an unscientific ramble, just answering your "what happens" question with opinions. (apologies in advance, I'm not in the best of moods).

As many have already pointed out, if Roe is overturned, the issue would immediately become one for the people to decide via their legislatures. This of course is not what pro-abortion forces like NOW want to see happen, especially since statistically speaking fewer Americans are in favor of legalized abortion now than they were at the time of Roe. Interestingly enough, ultrasounds, and the advance of medical technology have probably done more to bring that about than the opposition of religious groups.

At this point, only the bluest of the blue states don't want some sorts of limits to be applied on abortion, most people feel that aborting an unborn child in the second and third trimesters is not a legitimate form of birth control.

As to the coat hangers and back-alleys scenarios; obviously fleeing to the blue-blue states which wasn't really an option at the time of Roe will prevent a lot of that, but even so the figures there were inflated, and surely pale in comparison to the figure of 35 million, which is the number of legal abortions that have occurred in the USA since the RvW decision.

My completely unscientific assessment though Nash? The fillibuster, and the fact that he just isn't that socially conservative, will effectively prevent Bush from naming someone who would vote against the cherished "abortion penumbra of the mythical right to privacy" in the case of RvW.

Bush will probably nominate a mildly conservative legal positivist like Gonzales who happens to be pro-choice (further alienating his base which seems to be his objective in the second term), and which will end up working against all of us.

What we desperately need at this point is not yet another judicial oligarch, a politician in a black robe deciding law based on personal (and changing - O'Connor showed how that worked) preferences. What we desperately need is a lawyer who will seek simply to interpret and apply the constitution as it was written. That is the only way we have a hope of avoiding an endless string of eminent domain style positive law debacles.

Just my worthless opinions...

- SEAGOON

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SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Lizking

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If Roe v. Wade falls
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2005, 09:02:16 PM »
My condolences, Texace, it is not an easy thing.

I think abortions are a necessary evil.  I think they prevent more heartache than they create, but I also think that as birth control and testinghave  improved,  then it re-enforces the responsability of the "parents".  There is literally no excuse for a pregnancy, and if there is a pregnancy, of an early test to make the decision at an early stage.

Killing a lump of tissue is one thing, killing a self cognizant being is another.  In the case of the latter, it has to be a personal choice, but that choice should bear the concequences of that choice.


In short, there is no excuse to get pregnant other than by a crime committed.  There is no excuse other than by a crime committed not to confirm a preganancy at an early stage.  There is no excuse to abort a legal pregnancy past a certain stage, if known.

It is, and should be, a womans choice to  break any of those rules, but if they do, they should accept the legal consequences of murder.

Offline Nash

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If Roe v. Wade falls
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2005, 10:47:39 PM »
Hi Seagoon,

The "coat hangers and back-alleys scenarios" aspect really does interest me, because it's interesting to look past the political and theological arguments and see through to the impact of it.

Because it's one thing to say "Abortion is murder in the eyes of God", and a whole different ball of wax to deal with the consequences should they get their way.

(That is if the consequences are of any consequence when one holds such an unflinching stance.)

I looked into it a bit just now, and it's widely believed that 30 states would flip to criminilization of abortion should Roe v. Wade get struck down. Many of those already have laws on the books that would automatically go back into effect. Some have so-called trigger laws which would put new criminalization law into effect the minute that decision gets made.

I also found that 1.3 million abortions are performed per year in the United States.

Now, doing sloppy math here (the only kind I know), that means 60% of the country outlaws abortion, meaninng that 780,000 women who otherwise would have gotten an abortion, can't.

That has to be mitigated by the number of women who would travel out of state (the farther south you are, the farther you gotta go). Now I suppose the money and travel aren't going to be a problem to some of these women. To the poor, well they're just going to be out of luck. 'Cuz it's not going to be cheap.

So then, how many of those 780,000 Red State women who had abortions last year won't be able to? Half? More than half? Less than half? Lets just say half, for the sake of argument.

390,000 unwanted pregnancies every year in the United States to impoverished women. That's what that means.

But there's something else to consider which would whittle that number down a little. Those "smokey back room" abortions and the "do-it-yourselfers". So out of those stuck 390,000 women, how many are going to attempt one those? Half? More than half? Less than half? It's probably waaaay less. Lets say 5%.

So now we've got 370,500 unwanted pregnancies, and 19,500 black market or home styled abortions.

Of the later, those 19,500 women, what percentage of those abortions are going to be botched, resulting in requiring proper medical treatment from a hospital, and what percentage are going to result in death?

Lets say 60% of them go off without a hitch, 30% require further treatment, and 10% result in death.

It's rough - admittedly. But based on those numbers, what are we left with?

390,000 women flee their state for an abortion.

370,500 have their unwanted pregnancies.

11,700 get successful illegal abortions.

5,850 face criminal prosecution (for murder?).

1,950 die.

Every year.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2005, 11:03:47 PM by Nash »

Offline texace

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If Roe v. Wade falls
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2005, 12:34:47 AM »
I'd rather be thrown in jail than to watch my fiancée or wife die in the materety ward...

How many other men would think like that? How many women would take their chances faced with certain death?

We can go round and round with this, but the fact remains that it'll never come ot a conclusion. Even is Roe v. Wade falls, abortions will still happen. Jail time won't stop some people...it certainly wouldn't have stopped me.

We've all got our opinions on it...mine are just a bit more jaded due to my situation. I can honestly say it wasn't out of fear or because I wanted out of a family. No court in the land would care, though...

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens. Sob stories aside, I'm kinda on the fence about this. Not rally sure which way to go...

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2005, 09:30:50 AM »
texace... I don't think anyone is against abortion when the mothers life is in danger... A choice must be made.

nash.. are you saying that if abortion were made more rare that the rate of births would go up exactly that amount?  say for example... if 40,000 women get abortions now at 6 months into their pregnancy...  that if we made the cutoff at 5 months... we would have 40,000 extra births a year?

As for male birth control... liz... you are not talking about the little gangbangers and in and out of jail fathers that are making all the babies.... they don't ever pay for getting women pregnant... they can't even if they wanted to.   Many of them have multiple children in between jail times.... they can't even get a tailight fixed to keep fom getting pulled over and having the warrant for their arrest happen...  Them taking birth control pills??? you make me laugh.

law abiding men and some metrosexuals somewhere may take em..  Not enough tho that women should trust in that.   Men are allready punished to the max if they get a woman pregnant... what more are you gonna do to em if they did it cause they lied about taking the pill?  make em pay for the child the rest of their life?

lazs

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2005, 09:55:07 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
texace... I don't think anyone is against abortion when the mothers life is in danger... A choice must be made.

Incorrect.  There are MANY people in the anti-abortion movement who have _exactly_ that opinion.  Not everybody, but certainly many of the drivers behind anti-abortion legislation feel that way.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2005, 10:02:45 AM »
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Incorrect.  There are MANY people in the anti-abortion movement who have _exactly_ that opinion.  Not everybody, but certainly many of the drivers behind anti-abortion legislation feel that way.


I disagree completely

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2005, 10:06:23 AM »
well... lets not get all carried away by what a few people may think.   If there is a choice (which by the way is EXTREMELY rare)... then it is murder in either case...  or... the word "murder" does not apply.

A choice must be made.   Every anti abortion bill I have ever seen allows for the killing of the child to save the mothers life.

this is a silly arguement in any case... What kind of situation puts the mothers life in forfiet if a baby is born live?  As I said... very rare and sensible people would allow the doctor to make that decision.  

The mothers life in danger arguement is touted out like we will be stacking up dead mothers like cordwood if R v W is even weakened a tiny bit...  If we can't bash their little brains out while they are hooked up to the umbilical cord we will cause the deaths of untold thousands of poor mothers.

lazs

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2005, 10:08:04 AM »
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Incorrect.  There are MANY people in the anti-abortion movement who have _exactly_ that opinion.  Not everybody, but certainly many of the drivers behind anti-abortion legislation feel that way.



They are the fringe nuts, just like the people on the left that want abortions for any reason right to 9 months.

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2005, 10:33:52 AM »
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
They are the fringe nuts, just like the people on the left that want abortions for any reason right to 9 months.
That's fine, but you explicitly said "I don't think anyone is against abortion when the mothers life is in danger".  That's just not correct.  It's not even anywhere NEAR Correctville, USA.

In addition to the folks that loudly profess the above belief, there are also plenty of stealthers who won't cop to it unless pressed, because they know that their fanaticism will alienate critical swing-voters.  The agenda is driven by the extremists, this is true for any issue.  The goal of the successful extremist when creating legislation that bans something is to hold the crazy talk in check long enough to get the law passed, then they can throttle up.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2005, 10:42:58 AM »
Deleted


Rule #7
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 10:47:58 AM by MP7 »