Author Topic: P-38 vs Spit XIV  (Read 7333 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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P-38 vs Spit XIV
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2005, 09:08:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan


Both you and AKAK claim Galland lied so prove it. Talk about baseless accusations...


This is what I said...

Quote
As for the Galland vs. Lowell...well, I've heard both sides and frankly, Galland's word isn't any better than Lowell's.


I think with Galland's habit of also over stating things and painting things to make himself look better, then yes, what he said can also be taken with a grain of salt.  

And as Savage pointed out, the P-38's combat record in the ETO speaks for itself.  No use rehashing the war because you're bummed the LW got spanked.  I declare this thread over.


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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2005, 09:54:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan

Here's some from North Africa:


For the American view of those dates, go here.

This is the official USAAF WWII Combat Chronology by Carter & Mueller hosted on the Rutgers University server. You can download the entire document in plain text or html formats.

You will find some disagreements with what you have posted.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2005, 10:08:04 PM »
Barbi's prediction, and Wotan's seconding, that this thread would turn into flame has come true. Thanks should be given to Barbi and Wotan for pouring on the fuel .:rolleyes:

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2005, 10:32:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
For the American view of those dates, go here.

This is the official USAAF WWII Combat Chronology by Carter & Mueller hosted on the Rutgers University server. You can download the entire document in plain text or html formats.

You will find some disagreements with what you have posted.

My regards,

Widewing


Example 26 December:

What I posted:

Quote
On 26 December 1942, 1st FG escorted B-17s, but lost two P-38s to German fighters while the German units sustained no losses.


From your link:

Quote
In Tunisia, B-17s, with fighter escort, hit the harbor and shipping at
Bizerte; heavy AA and fighter attacks account for two B-17s and two P-38s
shot down; P-38s claim two Fw 190s destroyed.


Have you read Focke-Wulf Fw 190 in North Africa by:

Andrew Arthy and Morten Jessen

released in 2004?

They were no FW lost during this action.

I am not going through them all for you but here's the next one:

I posted:

Quote
On 2 January 1943, 27th FS/1st FG dispatched eight P-38s to escort B-17s, but these were bounced by 12 Bf 109s of ĶI./JG 51 and the C.O., Capt. Glenn, and Lt. H. K. Smith were both shot down - by Fw. Anton Hafner and Ofw. Otto Schulz - without German losses.


Quote
In Tunisia, B-17s bomb the
harbor  and shipping at La Goulette.  Escorting P-38s and Bf 109s engage in
air  battle, each side losing two aircraft.


The JG51 loss list show no 109 losses during this action.

Do you have access to Fighters over Tunisia by:

Christopher Shores
William N. Hess
Hans Ring..?

Even so are saying that web link provides a complete listing of all US claims and losses? I hope you are not that naive seeing how there are many 'white spots' in regards to US losses (as there are with all the combatant Nations).

Quote
I think with Galland's habit of also over stating things and painting things to make himself look better, then yes, what he said can also be taken with a grain of salt.


That may very well be but what does it have to do with Lowell's claim that he fought Galland while Galland was in a D-9?

Quote
As for the Galland vs. Lowell...well, I've heard both sides and frankly, Galland's word isn't any better than Lowell's.


You claim to have 'heard from both sides'? Both sides of what? The incident Lowell describes? If so please provide a link or source as to where you read Galland's side of this story.

If your reply to the questioning of Lowell's claim is that Galland is an opportunist then so what, that does nothing to validate Lowell.

If the P-38 has a record of 4 to 1 (I even read claims of 6 to 1) verses the LW then it shouldn't be that hard for the Cap'n to prove it.

If folks can't make an effort to back up what they claim then yes this thread is dead.

Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2005, 11:04:40 PM »
Always amazing where these conversations end up.

I keep wondering why it has to be completely one side or the other?

Was the 38 an uber plane?  Nope.  Was it a capable fighter.  Yes.  If not, I doubt they'd have kept it in operations in Europe and the  Pacific until the end.

I quoted the 370th 38 driver for a reason.  It seemed to show that sometimes the pilot made the difference.  Could be he was just lucky.  

I have a hard time believing he made it up just to lie when he was debriefed for the combat report.

Thought I was clear on the Lowell Galland bit.  Based on the entry of the D9 into service, and the exit of the 38 from the 364th, there isn't anyway for it to have taken place with Galland in a D9.

That being said, there were certainly reports by allied pilots of "Long nose" 190s prior to the actual entry of the D9 into combat.

As examples, the 56th FG in their jugs claimed D9s on June 8th of 44.  On June 20th of 44, the 370th in thier P38s thought they'd found D9s as well.  I know I've seen RAF claims of seeing them prior to D-Day.

Could it be that the word was out about the possibility of the D9 being about and the pilots saw what they anticipated seeing?  Sure.  Mistaken identity was nothing new in combat.  Did they lie delibrately?  I don't believe that for a minute.  Why would they?

It does bother me, that the tone of some of the posts come across almost arrogant in the tone towards pilots of both sides.  

To my understanding, none of us have ever been in a WW2 combat situation.  To pass judgement on those guys is nothing less then disrespectful.  

Regarding Lowell and the Spit driver.  I think that one's been covered.  I don't doubt that it happened.  Too many people witnessed it.  Spit XIV with an RAF senior pilot who'd been off ops for a time vs a current front line 38 pilot, most likely in one of the first J-25s since the Ls didn't get there until the fall of 44.

But you know, we always end up in the same place in these debates and they are pointless.

I'm outa here for 10 days anyway.  Off to England for the Flying Legends airshow and then France for a few days to visit Normandy etc.

I hope the rest of you have a good week.

Dan/CorkyJr
Dan/CorkyJr
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2005, 11:17:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
For the American view of those dates, go here.

This is the official USAAF WWII Combat Chronology by Carter & Mueller hosted on the Rutgers University server. You can download the entire document in plain text or html formats.

You will find some disagreements with what you have posted.

My regards,

Widewing


Yes, but you don't understand. Regardless of what you post, Wotan's sources agree with his fantasy world, so they are factual and better than yours, regardless of the validity of your sources.

I can post all sorts of reports showing combat that was decidedly lopsided in favor of the P-38 units, but nothing will come of it, just like nothing will come of what you posted.

American pilots are liars. At least according to Wotan. American records are completely false and invalid. At least according to Wotan. Even German pilots are not to be believed when they praise the P-38 in any way. At least according to Wotan. The world according to Wotan is a strange place indeed.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2005, 11:20:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Always amazing where these conversations end up.

I keep wondering why it has to be completely one side or the other?

Was the 38 an uber plane?  Nope.  Was it a capable fighter.  Yes.  If not, I doubt they'd have kept it in operations in Europe and the  Pacific until the end.

I quoted the 370th 38 driver for a reason.  It seemed to show that sometimes the pilot made the difference.  Could be he was just lucky.  

I have a hard time believing he made it up just to lie when he was debriefed for the combat report.

Thought I was clear on the Lowell Galland bit.  Based on the entry of the D9 into service, and the exit of the 38 from the 364th, there isn't anyway for it to have taken place with Galland in a D9.

That being said, there were certainly reports by allied pilots of "Long nose" 190s prior to the actual entry of the D9 into combat.

As examples, the 56th FG in their jugs claimed D9s on June 8th of 44.  On June 20th of 44, the 370th in thier P38s thought they'd found D9s as well.  I know I've seen RAF claims of seeing them prior to D-Day.

Could it be that the word was out about the possibility of the D9 being about and the pilots saw what they anticipated seeing?  Sure.  Mistaken identity was nothing new in combat.  Did they lie delibrately?  I don't believe that for a minute.  Why would they?

It does bother me, that the tone of some of the posts come across almost arrogant in the tone towards pilots of both sides.  

To my understanding, none of us have ever been in a WW2 combat situation.  To pass judgement on those guys is nothing less then disrespectful.  

Regarding Lowell and the Spit driver.  I think that one's been covered.  I don't doubt that it happened.  Too many people witnessed it.  Spit XIV with an RAF senior pilot who'd been off ops for a time vs a current front line 38 pilot, most likely in one of the first J-25s since the Ls didn't get there until the fall of 44.

But you know, we always end up in the same place in these debates and they are pointless.

I'm outa here for 10 days anyway.  Off to England for the Flying Legends airshow and then France for a few days to visit Normandy etc.

I hope the rest of you have a good week.

Dan/CorkyJr


You expect too much from certain individuals. Some people are convinced that the best way to glorify their heroes is to disparage their opponents as much as possible. It is simply the best that they can offer.

In any event, have a safe trip, and enjoy the show and the scenery.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Widewing

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« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2005, 11:43:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
The long ranged twin engined escort fighter proved to be a failure on all sides. If it was such a resounding success why develop anything else?

Widewing is definitely a fan of the P-38 (and everything else American).  I am sure that is what you picked up on when  you read the link Guppy provided.


Well, let's see... The P-82B was developed as a twin-engine escort fighter during the war. It was quite successful in Korea and would have been just as successful in WWII. Its max speed of 482 mph was faster than any axis prop fighter. Its wing loading was 8% less than the P-51D when both are at full internal load, a weight condition never seen in combat.

Another extremely capable twin-engine fighter was the F7F Tigercat. Have you read the reviews of the F7F from the Joint Fighter Conference? They thought it to be vastly superior to the P-38L they also tested.

Both of these fighters were developed to include the lessons learned in 1943-44. So yes, they DID develop additional twin-engine fighters.

Am I a fan of the P-38? You betcha. Was it without faults? Hell no. Was it better than the P-51 or P-47? In some repects, yes. In others, no. Was it the American's best fighter? No. There were better fighters in service by war's end, even by 1944.

Despite the ups and downs of the type, it was the best available for long range work when introduced to combat. The P-38F employed in North Africa lacked maneuver flaps. These arrived with the G model. So, it was unable to turn with the 109s until the Gs arrived in later winter of '43. But it always had great range and more than enough speed.

Oh, and have you read Steinhoff's Messerschmitts Over Sicily? If not, please try to locate a copy. He presents a very balanced opinion of the P-38, comparing strengths to weaknesses.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2005, 11:48:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan


That may very well be but what does it have to do with Lowell's claim that he fought Galland while Galland was in a D-9?



You claim to have 'heard from both sides'? Both sides of what? The incident Lowell describes? If so please provide a link or source as to where you read Galland's side of this story.

If your reply to the questioning of Lowell's claim is that Galland is an opportunist then so what, that does nothing to validate Lowell.

If the P-38 has a record of 4 to 1 (I even read claims of 6 to 1) verses the LW then it shouldn't be that hard for the Cap'n to prove it.

If folks can't make an effort to back up what they claim then yes this thread is dead.


Pull yourself together there bud, I haven't even mentioned Lowell or Galland.

You have confused posts and posters. No sense in getting that worked up.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2005, 12:06:52 AM »
Quote
American pilots are liars. At least according to Wotan. American records are completely false and invalid. At least according to Wotan. Even German pilots are not to be believed when they praise the P-38 in any way. At least according to Wotan. The world according to Wotan is a strange place indeed.


 That's not what I hear Wotan saying. This, is what he said;

"Over claiming aside this thread is about the outrageous claims made by Lowell. "

 At least, at this point, there is no doubting that Lowell cannot be trusted, is there?

Quote
You expect too much from certain individuals. Some people are convinced that the best way to glorify their heroes is to disparage their opponents as much as possible. It is simply the best that they can offer.


 Actually, I asked a simple question for info on where Galland exactly lied as much as Lowell, since you seem to know so much about what Galland remarked.

 Except the only info I ever got, at least according to whatever relevant info posted on this thread, was that Galland mentioned the P-38 in two sentences. Only Guppy and Tim was kind enough to actually bring up some relevant material.

 So just what exactly did we 'disparage'?

 The fact that Wotan mentioned the P-38 was basically considered an inefficient solution when compared to other USAAF fighters?

 Or the fact that I was curious about Galland was an exaggerated, overbloated source as Lowell, mentioning fights that did not occur and  planes that did not exist?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2005, 12:10:50 AM by Kweassa »

Online eddiek

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« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2005, 10:12:59 AM »
I don't wanna step on any toes here, but I remember someone posting a more detailed account of the "fight" between Lowell and a long nose 190 a few years back.  It deteriorated into the same type argument we are seeing right now.
 IIRC, the story was told at a reunion, one which several former fighter pilots from both sides were attending, and as Lowell described the fight, giving detail of the layout of the land, etc....Galland was supposed to have "turned pale" and said "You SOB, you almost killed me that day!".
 After reading many posts here saying that the fight could not have happened due to: a)the Dora was not even in service at the time; b)"Galland never even flew a Dora"; c) "Galland did not even fly that day....I looked it up and he was doing something else that day"............I concluded, to myself, that maybe Lowell had his dates wrong, or the ID'd he enemy aircraft incorrectly, or his memory was just fuzzy.....but Galland corroborating his story in the midst of other veterans, right out in the open, groups him right there with Lowell.
Lowell appears to have been a proud, boastful man, as was Galland.  They appear to be twins, ready to tell a good story, proud of their accomplishments, able to tell a good tale.  Do I believe they might have both played up the stories, told "fisherman's tales"?  YES
Anyone who claims to be unbiased would have to see the similiarities in the men, and realize that neither was more or less reliable for good accurate information than the other.  
If you want to throw Lowell's accounts out the window as rubbish, at least be fair and admit that the same can be said about Galland.  One flew for the Allies, one for the Luftwaffe, but each tended to stretch the truth a bit.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2005, 01:47:56 PM »
Quote
You have confused posts and posters. No sense in getting that worked up.

My regards,

Widewing


It's not that hard really. Since I quoted each person I reply to it shouldn't be that hard for you to figure out where a reply to you ends and another picks up.

So when you got to this quote:

Quote
I think with Galland's habit of also over stating things and painting things to make himself look better, then yes, what he said can also be taken with a grain of salt.


and realized it's not something you wrote that should have been a clue that my following replies weren't directed to you.

Anyway your reference to the the P-83 / F-83 is irrelevant given the numbers in service. Less then 300 total and more then half were night fighters.

The F7F under 400 built, less then 100 after the war most as night fighters? Are these your examples of long range twin engined escort fighters?

Quote
Oh, and have you read Steinhoff's Messerschmitts Over Sicily? If not, please try to locate a copy. He presents a very balanced opinion of the P-38, comparing strengths to weaknesses.


Of course I have Steinhoff's book. I brought up Steinhoff very early in this thread because most P-38 lovers point to him as clear evidence of how good the P-38 was.

What I said all along the P-38 was nothing special. Certainly at double the cost of the P-51 it wasn't twice the plane the P-51 was. Not even close.

But lets get back on topic. My first post was in reply to the fact that Lowell never fought Galland in a D-9.

The response from the P-38 lovers has been (and I'll quote them so don't get confused):

AKAK:

Quote
As for the Galland vs. Lowell...well, I've heard both sides and frankly, Galland's word isn't any better than Lowell's.


and then the Cap'n:

Quote
If you are going to castigate Lowell for "embellishment", then Galland has to be right up there with him.


and (among others)

Quote
Galland is well known as a Luftwaffe apologist and a self promoter prone to embillishment at best, and not known for telling the truth unless forced to.


All that my very well be true but it has nothing to with Lowell's claims. The only person who has addressed Lowell's claim about fighting Galland while Galland was in a D-9 is Guppy.

Neither of them will say what Galland lied about in reference to this incident.

I have said I am no admirer of Galland but they (AKAK and the Cap'n) go out of there way to turn the issue around so we end up discussing Galland or some other topic unrelated to the original post.

Quote
American pilots are liars. At least according to Wotan. American records are completely false and invalid. At least according to Wotan. Even German pilots are not to be believed when they praise the P-38 in any way. At least according to Wotan. The world according to Wotan is a strange place indeed.


Aren't you the guy who was all upset about baseless accusations?

True to form Cap'n...

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2005, 11:09:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan

Anyway your reference to the the P-83 / F-83 is irrelevant given the numbers in service. Less then 300 total and more then half were night fighters.

The F7F under 400 built, less then 100 after the war most as night fighters? Are these your examples of long range twin engined escort fighters?

Of course I have Steinhoff's book. I brought up Steinhoff very early in this thread because most P-38 lovers point to him as clear evidence of how good the P-38 was.

What I said all along the P-38 was nothing special. Certainly at double the cost of the P-51 it wasn't twice the plane the P-51 was. Not even close.

But lets get back on topic. My first post was in reply to the fact that Lowell never fought Galland in a D-9.


500 P-82Bs were being manufactured at the time Japan surrendered. Likewise, 500 F7F-1 fighters were in various stages of manufacture.

Those P-82s were specifically designed for escort of B-29s.

As to the P-38; it was an excellent fighter at medium altitudes, right on down to the deck. It was also a first rate attack aircraft. However, by 1945 it was past its prime and technology was quickly passing it by. Nontheless, it was still a first string fighter in the Pacific and able to defeat anything it would encounter.

Yet in terms of cost effectiveness, the P-38 was very expensive to build and operate. That, probably more than any other factor was what pushed it to the side. Moreover, Lockheed was unwilling to spend addition time and treasure on updating the design as their money was completely invested in the P-80. Likewise, Republic dropped the very capable XP-72 due to the P-84 offering vastly greater performance. All of the late-war piston powered fighters faced a major change of mission with the rapid development of jet aircraft, with older designs being sacked first (P-40 and P-38).

As to Galland and Lowell, I personally would have serious reservations with either gentlemen as far as their "war stories" went. When their facts disagree with reality... Well, then their facts are not facts at all.  

People without anything to prove are always more reliable.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2005, 12:21:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
As to the P-38; it was an excellent fighter at medium altitudes, right on down to the deck. It was also a first rate attack aircraft. However, by 1945 it was past its prime and technology was quickly passing it by. Nontheless, it was still a first string fighter in the Pacific and able to defeat anything it would encounter.

Yet in terms of cost effectiveness, the P-38 was very expensive to build and operate. That, probably more than any other factor was what pushed it to the side. Moreover, Lockheed was unwilling to spend addition time and treasure on updating the design as their money was completely invested in the P-80. Likewise, Republic dropped the very capable XP-72 due to the P-84 offering vastly greater performance. All of the late-war piston powered fighters faced a major change of mission with the rapid development of jet aircraft, with older designs being sacked first (P-40 and P-38).

My regards,

Widewing


One can add to all of that the fact that the USAAF and the War Production Board steadfastly refused nearly every improvement Lockheed developed for the P-38 after the P-38K test mule was built and tested. Other than MINOR detail improvements, NOTHING added to the P-38 from late 1943 on had not already been developed by early 1943. It never got the engines or propellors proposed for the P-38K. And of course, they also declined to allow Lockheed to install the improved and simplified control system.

Most everything found on the 1944 and later P-38 was developed in early to mid 1943, and therefore development and improvement of the P-38 ceased at that point. It was not so much that Lockheed was unwilling or unable to carry it further, but rather that what they did was never put to good use. Even the P-38L was a 1943 development that entered service late because Lockheed was wasting valuable production on building B-17's when Consolidated Vultee would have been a far better choice for the task. All the fighters everyone compares to the P-38 saw extensive improvements developed AFTER 1943.

IF one contends that the P-38 suffered because of a poor power to weight ratio, making it sluggish, then the P-38K solved all of that, and with a four or five blade prop rather than the three blade, it would have only gotten better.

Had the basic design premise of the P-38 been a dead end, then the P-82 would never have been built at all. But for the most part, the performance of the P-38K was on par with that of the P-82, which entered service nearly 3 YEARS after the P-38K was rejected out of hand.

Certainly the P-38K is a "what if" plane, as it never saw production. However, it is a clear demonstration that the P-38 had far more potential than was extracted from it. And going by the logical progression of the development process for the P-38, the P-38K SHOULD have entered service BEFORE the J or the L models. The J and L should have been detail improvements on the K. While the P-38K was never produced, it is by no means a fantasy, nor a figment of anyone's imagination. The plane existed, and its performance was verified.

I've never contended that the P-38 was even close to an all conquering wonder plane, merely that it was a successful and versatile plane and easily able to compete with any of the contemporary competitors, as opposed to being a second or third rate fighter as some attempt to portray it. The P-38 was not outclassed by anything on either side with pistons and props.

And by 1945, for use as a FIGHTER, everything with pistons and props was quickly passed by and rendered obsolete.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Widewing

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« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2005, 07:30:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
One can add to all of that the fact that the USAAF and the War Production Board steadfastly refused nearly every improvement Lockheed developed for the P-38 after the P-38K test mule was built and tested. Other than MINOR detail improvements, NOTHING added to the P-38 from late 1943 on had not already been developed by early 1943. It never got the engines or propellors proposed for the P-38K. And of course, they also declined to allow Lockheed to install the improved and simplified control system.

Most everything found on the 1944 and later P-38 was developed in early to mid 1943, and therefore development and improvement of the P-38 ceased at that point. It was not so much that Lockheed was unwilling or unable to carry it further, but rather that what they did was never put to good use. Even the P-38L was a 1943 development that entered service late because Lockheed was wasting valuable production on building B-17's when Consolidated Vultee would have been a far better choice for the task. All the fighters everyone compares to the P-38 saw extensive improvements developed AFTER 1943.

IF one contends that the P-38 suffered because of a poor power to weight ratio, making it sluggish, then the P-38K solved all of that, and with a four or five blade prop rather than the three blade, it would have only gotten better.

Had the basic design premise of the P-38 been a dead end, then the P-82 would never have been built at all. But for the most part, the performance of the P-38K was on par with that of the P-82, which entered service nearly 3 YEARS after the P-38K was rejected out of hand.

Certainly the P-38K is a "what if" plane, as it never saw production. However, it is a clear demonstration that the P-38 had far more potential than was extracted from it. And going by the logical progression of the development process for the P-38, the P-38K SHOULD have entered service BEFORE the J or the L models. The J and L should have been detail improvements on the K. While the P-38K was never produced, it is by no means a fantasy, nor a figment of anyone's imagination. The plane existed, and its performance was verified.

I've never contended that the P-38 was even close to an all conquering wonder plane, merely that it was a successful and versatile plane and easily able to compete with any of the contemporary competitors, as opposed to being a second or third rate fighter as some attempt to portray it. The P-38 was not outclassed by anything on either side with pistons and props.

And by 1945, for use as a FIGHTER, everything with pistons and props was quickly passed by and rendered obsolete.
 

Test data from the XP-38K and the previously modified P-38E certainly established that the high activity props made substantial improvements in climb and acceleration. Likewise, a notable speed increase was recorded.

However, the problem that still dogged the P-38 was its wing design. Improved power and efficency did not increase its critical Mach speed. With more power and better props the XP-38K found itself up against its critical Mach in level flight at its critical altitude. Therefore, while these changes, had they been implemented, would have made the P-38 an even more capable fighter at low to medium altitudes, it still would have suffered from compressibility issues at high altitudes.

It should have been adopted, there was no valid reason not to.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.