Author Topic: P-38 vs Spit XIV  (Read 7331 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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P-38 vs Spit XIV
« on: July 05, 2005, 04:13:19 PM »
two post from another forum - part 1.

by DoubleT

An excerpt from "Top-Guns" By Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan... this account of mock-combat shared by Colonel John Lowell, highest scoring P-38 ace/European Theatre:
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"Our Group recieved several P-38Ls just before the P-51s arrived. This latest "Lightning" had dive-flaps under the wings, improved power and a gun camera located away from the nose. On a day we were 'stood down" (no missions), General Eisenhower arranged for one of the top English aces, Wing Commander Donaldson, to come to Honington and show us slides of English Spitfires that had been equipped with external tanks like U.S. fighters. Those tanks allowed Spitfires to penetrate deep into Germany. Most of the U.S. pilots didn't know about the Spit's long-range, and some Spitfires had been fired upon before American pilots realized that their insignia was the Royal Air Force circle and not a German Swastika. ME-109s, P-51s and Spitfires were not easily distinguishable from one another until close enough to "make combat."

All 364th Fighter Group pilots attended Donaldson's slide picture presentation in our briefing room. When he had finished, he described the new Spitfire XV he had flown to our base. It had a five-bladed prop, a bigger engine, and improved firepower. Then he said, "If one of you bloody bastards has enough guts, I'll fly mock combat above your field and show you how easily this SpitXV can whip your best pilot's ass."

The entire group started clapping and hollared, "Big John! Big John!"
That was me, so I asked him, "what is your fuel load?"
He replied, "Half petrol."
"What is your ammo load?"
He said, "No ammo."

We agreed to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, then anything goes. I took-off in a new P-38L, after my crew chief had removed the ammo and put back the minimum counter-balance, dropped the external tanks, and sucked out half the internal fuel. I climbed very high, so that as I dived down to cross over the field at 5,000 feet I would be close to 600mph.

When Donaldson and I crossed, I zoomed straight-up while watching him try to get on my tail. When he did a wingover from loss of speed, I was several thousand feet above him, so I quickly got on his tail. Naturally, he turned into a full-power right Lufbery as I closed in. I frustrated that with my "Clover-Leaf", and if we'd had "hot guns", he would have been shot down. He came over the field with me on his tail and cut throttle, dropped flaps, and split S'ed from about 1000 feet. I followed him with the new flaps, banked only about 45 degrees, but still dropped below the treetops.

The men of the 364th were watching the fight and saw me go out of sight below the treetops. Several of them told me later that they thought I would crash. But they were wrong. All I had to do was move over behind his Spit XV again. He was apparently surprised. He had stated at our briefing that he would land after our fight to explain the superior capabilities of his Spit XV, but he ignored that promise and flew back to his base. I was most pleased with the reception I got upon landing."

Offline MiloMorai

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P-38 vs Spit XIV
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2005, 04:14:27 PM »
part 2

by robert

I've previously looked at John Lowell's claims in detail, so excuse me for posting on this subject at length. I don't trust Lowell as a source because a very large percentage of his claims that can be checked turn out to be either factual mistakes or embellishments. He's also recounting the events for a book published in 1991 - close to 50 years after the fact. Memory at that distance can be hazy.

Let's concentrate on what he says in Top Guns: America's Fighter Aces Tell Their Stories, by Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan. The book from which I quote is the first hardcover printing of June, 1991, published by Pocket Books, ISBN 0-671-68317-9.

The only RAF ace named Donaldson was E.M. "Teddy" Donaldson. He was indeed an RAF ace, although he's much better known for setting a post-war world speed record in the Gloster Meteor. He was named C/O of No. 151 Squadron in November 1938, and led that Squadron until August 5, 1940. His score was 5 destroyed, 1 shared destroyed, and 1 damaged, all on Hurricanes in the summer of 1940. On June 30, 1940 he was shot down into the sea (reportedly by Adolf Galland!). I don't know if he suffered injuries that contributed to him being relieved of command and given a staff assignment in August 1940, but from what I can gather, he saw no more operational flying after 1940. One source I have says he was later attached to the Polish Wing, but it must have been in a primarily non-flying capacity as the detailed table of British aces who had kills with the Polish Wing in Polish Air Aces of World War 2, does not mention him, and neither do the two other detailed works I have on Polish fighter units in WW2. Donaldson, interestingly, spent most of 1942 in America, as an air gunnery instructor at Luke Field!

So it looks like if the identification is correct, Donaldson had not flown combat for four years, or at the very least had not had a kill for four years, when the mock combat occurred. He may have been a little out of practice...

Lowell claims that Donaldson was "one of the top English aces" - his five kills would put him somewhere around 800th on the list of RAF/Commonwealth aces. There's no disrespect intended towards Donaldson - he was an ace, and anyone who served during WW2 to ensure our freedom has my respect and gratitude, but he clearly was nowhere near being "one of the top English aces", as Lowell describes him.

In the short bio at the end of the book, Lowell is credited with "sixteen and a half confirmed; nine probable; eleven damaged."

However, according to the official USAAF figures, Lowell's actual totals are nowhere near that. Frank Olynyk's American Stars and Bars, the definitive book on the combat totals of US fighter aces, gives Lowell's actual totals as 7.5 kills, 1 probable, and 2 damaged, or about one-third of what Top Guns credits him with. Someone's way off here, and it isn't Olynyk, a man who has devoted himself to the study of USAAF fighter claims, and whose massive 668-page book is written directly from USAAF claim records. Lowell is credited by Olynyk with 9 ground kills, but these are different from air-to-air kills, and even though the 8th AF uniquely recorded ground kills at the time, they were not grouped in with air-to-air kills.

Lowell is also quoted in Top Guns as saying, "A few years ago, the American Fighter Aces had their annual reunion at Maxwell AFB in Alabama...Gabreski saw me and called me over to his little group...He introduced me as the highest scoring P-38 Ace in Europe..."

Admittedly this is not Lowell himself talking, but he doesn't bother to right the incorrect impression. Lowell wasn't anywhere close to being the leading P-38 ace in Europe. He had exactly 3 kills and 1 probable while flying the P-38, which puts him behind James Morris (7.333 ETO P-38 kills) and Robin Olds (5.0 ETO P-38 kills), and five other P-38 ETO aces.

Lowell incorrectly gives the model number of the Spitfire he talks about. He describes it as having "a five-bladed prop, a bigger engine, and more firepower." From the description, it would have to be either a Mk.XII or Mk.XIV, most probably a Mk.XIV. Lowell, however, calls it a Mk.XV, not once, but three times. There was no Spitfire Mk.XV. It didn't exist. The mark number XV was given to the Seafire Mk.XV, which was a Royal Navy aircraft, of which the first one was delivered in October, 1944 (the P-38/Spitfire duel must have taken place in June or July 1944, if Lowell was flying a P-38L as claimed, as the first P-38L was not delivered until June 1944, and the 364th FG was flying missions fully equipped with P-51s by July 27). The fact he gets the mark number wrong may seem insignificant, but it proves that he doesn't have much familiarity with the aircraft he's talking about, and it also proves that the authors did not edit the stories that they recount in the book for historical accuracy. (The book is a series of 27 chapters, each recounting a particular ace's career in his own words. It has a feel remarkably similar to Lawrence Ritter's great baseball book, The Glory of Their Times.)

Lowell quotes Donaldson as saying, "If one of you bloody bastards has enough guts, I'll fly mock combat above your field and show you how easily this Spit XV can whip your best pilot's ass!"

I'm sorry, but British people don't talk like that. Americans do. Heck, British people don't even use the word "ass". After the war, Donaldson was the air correspondant for several British newspapers and magazines. I've read his writing, and this doesn't sound like his style.

Lowell spends much time recounting an air battle between himself and Adolf Galland, when the latter was flying an Fw 190D. Lowell states "One of our last P-38 missions was a flight to protect bombers on a mission to Berlin. My squadron was flying top cover. We were attacked from above, out of the sun, by sixteen long nosed FW-190s."

Let's hold it right there for a minute. We know that this couldn't have been any later than late July, 1944, for they were an all-Mustang group by that date. When did the Fw 190D, the long-nosed variant, enter service? The Fw 190D-9 entered service with III./JG 54 in September, 1944, two months after the latest date that the fight could have taken place, given Lowell's account. The type of aircraft he claims that he fought in squadron strength was not even in service!

A poster on another WW2 board who has looked into Lowell's story in detail has tried to reconcile Lowell's claim by seeing if it was possible that Galland was flying a prototype Fw 190D, but says that, "There's a complete list of the prototypes and their history. I couldn't find any suitable prototype that might have been used by Galland - and Lowell mentions an entire flight of "long-nose" Fw 190s anyway, which is entirely impossible at the time. Lowell's account is contradictory in a number of points - for example, the position he quotes doesn't match the landscape he describes."

So it's not just me that has doubts about Lowell's credibility.

Lowell, by the way, describes Galland as having "over three hundred victories". Galland actually had 104, which the last time I checked was 196 less than 300.

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2005, 04:17:32 PM »
Nice flamethread, Milo.
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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2005, 04:21:10 PM »
part 3

by robert

Lowell also claims that Galland, when asked if he shot down any P-38s, told him that he had shot down eight. Once again, this can be checked, and once again, it proves false - Galland had no P-38s among his 104 kills. After Galland's 97th kill on November 18, 1941, he was removed from combat flying to serve as General of Fighters. No P-38s, of course, were among those 97 kills, because the US had not even entered the war at that time! He had seven additional kills later in the war, including those while flying "unofficial" missions. These consisted of four B-26s, one B-17, one B-24, and one unidentified aircraft. If the aircraft had been a P-38, I'm sure, with its unmistakable profile, Galland would have been able to identify it. Even if it had been a P-38, that would give him one, not eight. I find it difficult to believe that Galland would either not know the types of aircraft he had shot down, or that he deliberately lied to Lowell. The most generous possibility is that Lowell misunderstood Galland's reply.

It occured to me to check to see if there was a retelling of the Lowell-Galland fight from Galland's side. I checked Fighter General, The Life of Adolf Galland: The Official Biography, by Col. Raymond F. Toliver & Trevor J. Constable, to see if there is any mention of it. There isn't any mention of it whatsoever. Galland, of course, was not an operational pilot at that time, serving as General of Fighters. He did make the occasional flight in an Luftwaffe fighter, to keep current with operational conditions. There is no mention of him using an Fw 190D at all, although he did use an Fw 190A-6, "White 2", in early 1944, and his escape from P-51s in that aircraft is mentioned.

At the time that the fight must have taken place, according to Lowell, Galland was concerned with organizing the fighter defense against the Allied invasion in Normandy. He took a lengthy inspection trip to assess the state of the German fighters in France shortly before the Allied breakout from Avranches, which would put it right in the timeframe that Lowell claims he fought Galland over Berlin.

Lowell later describes another fight with Fw 190s. "One of my missions in a P-51 took us southeast of Berlin to cover B-17 bombers...(I) leveled out at about fifty feet, right in the middle of the German Peenemunde air base...as I streaked across in front of the German hangars, I saw several ME-163 rocket fighters and blasted three of them."

Lowell claims he was "southeast of Berlin." Peendemunde is on an island, in the Baltic Sea.

Lowell also describes, during another mission, a running battle with an Me 262, which he claims he eventually shot down. Lowell states, "Ironically no gun camera record or other pilot witness gave me a 'victory' - only a 'probable'."

With no gun camera film or witnesses, it would be against policy to award a probable in a case such as described, and indeed Lowell was never credited with a probable (or even a damaged, or any other category) against an Me 262. His only credited probable was against an "Me 109" on March 6, 1944.

Lowell goes on in Top Guns to describe testing the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star after the war. He claims that he was "the first military test pilot to fly the P-80." Here's another story that can be verified - or not. The first military test pilot to fly the Shooting Star was actually a Capt. Lien, who first flew it in February, 1944, when Lowell was still in Europe.

Lowell goes on to say, "The three P-80s in England had been destroyed by [engine fires]. It happened this way. Several of the top aces in the ETO volunteered to fly the P-80 against the Germans. I wound up number five on the list, until the engine on the first P-80 flown in England caught fire, and the pilot bailed out and was seriously injured. Then I was number three on the list. The second P-80 caught fire at low altitude. Another pilot bailed out and was seriously injured. Then I was volunteer number two. The third jet caught fire on takeoff. The pilot cut the engine, folded the gear, slid off the end of the runway, and was badly burned. Now I was number one. V-E Day came shortly hereafter."

Quite the story. And once again, we can check independently to see how accurate Lowell is. He gets everything wrong. Everything.

I'll do a direct quote from Rene Francillon's Lockheed Aircraft Since 1913, on the fate of the four YP-80s sent to Europe during WW2:

"Four YP-80As were allocated for deployment to Europe to demonstrate their capabilities to combat crews and to help in the development of defensive tactics to be used against the Luftwaffe's jet fighters. Two aircraft were sent to England in mid-December 1944 but on 28 January, 1945, during its second flight in the United Kingdom, 44-83026 crashed, killing its pilot. The other UK-deployed aircraft, 44-83027, was then lent to Rolls-Royce to be fitted as a testbed for the B-41 turbojet; on 14 November, 1945, it was destroyed in a crash-landing after engine failure. More fortunate were the two aircraft (44-83028 and 44-83029) shipped to the Mediterranean theater which survived their demonstration period in Italy."

So, let's see now. Lowell says there were three P-80s sent to England; there were two, one of which was loaned to Rolls-Royce as a test bed. Lowell says they were to be flown against the Germans; they were sent specifically as demonstration aircraft and to test combat tactics. Lowell claims all three crashed prior to V-E Day; one actually did. Lowell claims there were no pilot fatalities; the one crash prior to V-E Day was fatal.

I very rarely interject myself into my posts. But here, I feel I have to. I've worked professionally as a writer, editor, research assistant, and proofreader for over 25 years. It's what I do. You learn to get a feel for the validity of a story, just as a truck driver would learn the feel of his truck. Lowell's stories have caused the red flags to come out on more occasions than anything I've read in years. I'm sure that Lowell was a fine fighter pilot, and as I've mentioned, I'm grateful to anyone who defended our freedom in those terrible years. But that doesn't mean that we should just take everything the pilot says at face value without questioning it. Many aces, such as Pierre Clostermann, have had their claims severely questioned by post-war historians. It isn't being disrespectful to search for the truth...

The point is that Lowell consistently embellishes his stories to the point of disbelief and that many of his "facts" are repudiated by reliable historical sources. Much of what he says that can be checked turns out to be wrong. He is simply, in my opinion, not a credible source. One of Lowell's fellow aces has suggested that he was suffering from dementia or Alzheimers when he gave the interview quoted in Top Guns, and I think that's a very real possibility.

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2005, 04:30:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
Nice flamethread, Milo.

Only you would see it as a flame Barbi. :rolleyes: But what else can we expect from you when your 2cd luv, the Spitfire, is mentioned. :rofl

It was posted to show that one can't take what some say at face value.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2005, 04:53:16 PM »
Galland never flew a 190D-9. It was pointed out in many threads over the years that Lowell was full of crap.. err  embellishment in this regard (any suspected in many others) as the author of the above points out.
 
Once the AH P-38 mafia reads this Kurfürst will have been proven correct:

Quote
Nice flamethread, Milo.


Its inevitably coming...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2005, 04:56:26 PM by Wotan »

Offline Kurfürst

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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2005, 05:11:55 PM »
Yeah, that`s the goal, Wotan.

But here`s something for the P-38 fans : if something is obviously nonsense, you can safely ignore it. Use your head and save your time.
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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2005, 05:24:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
Yeah, that`s the goal, Wotan.

But here`s something for the P-38 fans : if something is obviously nonsense, you can safely ignore it. Use your head and save your time.


Good then we can safely ignore your posts on how uber the 109 is suppose to be. :D :aok

Naturally, the German luvers, Wotan and Barbi, again show their lack of reading comprehension. They are just trying to stir up trouble, as usual. The thread has nothing to do about the mock combat between the P-38 and Spitfire.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2005, 06:45:03 PM »
I never mentioned "spitfire".

I simply agreed with original authors point:

Quote
The point is that Lowell consistently embellishes his stories to the point of disbelief and that many of his "facts" are repudiated by reliable historical sources.


I also pointed out that the AH 'P-38s are awesome' crowd will be along shortly to 'set us all straight'.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2005, 07:19:19 PM »
Quite good Wotan ;)

And Kurfurst:
" Use your head and save your time."

Try it once :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2005, 08:24:12 PM »
The Lowell story about the duel with the Spitfire has always been a little suspect because each time the story is told it is always a different Spitfire.  If it did take place the it was most likely against Donaldson and as +Tiff mentioned in a post awhile back about this, Donaldson was hardly at the top of his game at the time the duel took place.

As for the Galland vs. Lowell...well, I've heard both sides and frankly, Galland's word isn't any better than Lowell's.

But there is one that that cannot be held in dispute and that is the prowess Lowell showed in the P-38.  Regardless of what his kill record was, he was one of the few that could squeeze every bit of performance out of the Lightning.

ack-ack
« Last Edit: July 05, 2005, 08:26:58 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2005, 10:44:08 PM »
Yep that's old news.  Hohun and I went round on that one back on the AW boards way back when :)

It made me learn more about the D9 as there were so many reports of D9s in combat both by RAF and USAAF pilots prior to it's actual introduction that it left some doubt in my mind as to whether the Galland, Lowell meeting could have taken place.  At this point I don't think it did.  If it did, Galland certainly wasn't in a D9.  

No doubt the other story was a Spitfire XIV.  The XII had a 4 blade prop.  There was a Seafire XV floating around to the bases at that time too as some of the Spit XII drivers of 41 squadron were asked to fly it to get their opinions on it.  But the 5 blade prop could only have been an XIV

It was witnessed by enough folks that I don't doubt the story in terms of what happened.

As the quoted writer mentions, the only Donaldson that was an Ace was Teddy and he'd been out of the firing line for a while.  If he made the mistakes that many vet Merlin Spit pilots did when flying the Griffon birds, in trying to fly them like an early Spit, he didn't help himself.  His combat time was in Hurricanes as well.

I think within the 364th and the 38 world, there is agreement that Lowell was one of the better 38 drivers around.

What were we arguing about again? :)

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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2005, 12:20:15 AM »
I think it was about Lowell's prowess of exaggeration Guppy.

 Or, like how he agreed to cross-over at 5,000 feet, climbed a helluva higher than that and then cheated on the first merge, going 'close to 600mph'.


 But then again, that's not really surprising, since that's what they do in AH already. Anyone ever met a P-38 on your six that did not come from higher alts? :D

Offline BUG_EAF322

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« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2005, 02:26:31 AM »
That is a boring LW tactic,

Offline TimRas

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« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2005, 02:49:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
As for the Galland vs. Lowell...well, I've heard both sides and frankly, Galland's word isn't any better than Lowell's.


AFAIK, there is no Galland's word. He simply does not mention this kind of fight in any of his books or interviews, which is odd, given the Lowell's dramatic description. However he has given his general opinion of the P-38:


CUNNINGHAM: The Me.110 was a disappointment, then, as you say?
GALLAND: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think the Lightning was an equal mistake.

CUNNINGHAM: The P-38?
GALLAND: Yes, the P-38.

CUNNINGHAM: You mentioned in your book that P-38s were not difficult to handle in combat, that you can..
GALLAND (laughing): Many, many P-38 pilots are angry with me about this statement, but it's true.

http://home.tiscali.be/ed.ragas/awshistory/awsgalland.html

It it difficult to think he would have such an opinion after experincing a fight Lowell claims.