African Birth Rate

[Samiam]

Originally posted by midnight Target
So, people = deer?

I guess all of you would have voted against the Marshall plan too?  I mean why not let Europe starve. The war was their own fault. With all those bombed out ruins the population was too high to be supported by the infrastructure...

Funny how quick we are to sentence innocent people to death when they are so far away.

No. But...

Are you suggesting, as with what led up to the Marshall plan, the solution is a full scale military invasion, the dismantling of all existing political and military structure, followed by the aggresive establishment of a system largely designed by us, with this process overseen by our military?

Wait a minute...this reminds me of something I know you've argued gainst, MT.

[bustr]

The Marshall Plan was the opening shot in the next World War. Our resolve to be in the game was being tested by Stalin.

The West's aid to the 3rd world has turned it into what it currently is. Just like wellfare in the America created it's current failed mess. You cannot save human beings from themselves. Our arrogance in the notion that we can is killing people in the 3rd world and has perpetuated the evil of welfare in America for 40 years.

In nature, left alone, ecosystems out of balance will adjust themselves. Africa is completely out of balance. The West is perpetuating the imbalance by being involved. Our aid never gives Africa a chance to balance itself in whatever form it's people can emotional, psychological and culturaly support.

[GtoRA2]

Originally posted by midnight Target
So, people = deer?

I guess all of you would have voted against the Marshall plan too?  I mean why not let Europe starve. The war was their own fault. With all those bombed out ruins the population was too high to be supported by the infrastructure...

Funny how quick we are to sentence innocent people to death when they are so far away.

We are not doing anything to them. They are doing it on their own. Why should our tax money be thrown away, when it won't help.


Africa is not post WW2 europe.

[Tilt]

I think I am with Karaya now even if he isnt with me............

Jeez guys will some of you just  read what you have written!

SEP (Somebody Elses Problem)

Denial

Mass extinction policies?


tens of thousands per day guys.....tens of thousands a day!

dont play debating games with this one.............


there is no simple solution and we (the West) cannot solve it all without African will to do so as well.............

But for sure we cannot / will not help them if we dont attempt to understand stuff..............

Is this the evil that grows when good men do nothing?

[GtoRA2]

Originally posted by Tilt
I think I am with Karaya now even if he isnt with me............

Jeez guys will some of you just  read what you have written!

SEP (Somebody Elses Problem)

Denial

Mass extinction policies?


tens of thousands per day guys.....tens of thousands a day!

dont play debating games with this one.............


there is no simple solution and we (the West) cannot solve it all without African will to do so as well.............

But for sure we cannot / will not help them if we dont attempt to understand stuff..............

Is this the evil that grows when good men do nothing?

Ok smart guy how do you fix it. A real fix not a fantasy land fix that will never work.



I refuse to feel any guilt for a problem I had nothing to do with. IS it tragic? Yes it is. Is it fair? No prolly not, life is like that. Can we realisticaly do anyhing about it? I really doubt it, but if someone can come up with  a smart plan I am all ears, but so far all I hear is people trying to guilt others into feeling bad over **** they can do nothing about.

[Samiam]

Originally posted by Tilt
I think I am with Karaya now even if he isnt with me............

Jeez guys will some of you just  read what you have written!

SEP (Somebody Elses Problem)

Denial

Mass extinction policies?


tens of thousands per day guys.....tens of thousands a day!

dont play debating games with this one.............


there is no simple solution and we (the West) cannot solve it all without African will to do so as well.............

But for sure we cannot / will not help them if we dont attempt to understand stuff..............

Is this the evil that grows when good men do nothing?

There's a marked difference between ignoring a problem in hopes that it will go away and making a well considered decision to not continue to exacerbate a problem by throwing money at it.

[bustr]

One person or 250 million persons you cannot solve their problem from your side of the issue. The person(s) has to solve their problem or suffer their problem. If you get involved, you "might" get randomly lucky and do occassional good.

More often you will either be sucked in and become part of the problem, or you will force your cherished utopian solution upon them by force of some threat and make them a slave or a junky to your solution.

Only when the person or community is ready to solve their own problem will they change and heal themselves. At that time they also won't need your cherished plan of social utopianism because they will have found their path to self sufficiency.

Africans are still slaves to the western world because of all the aid. We don't need them to live in our homes, or toil in our feilds anymore. We have them addicted to our aid while we are addicted to our selfish "self image" as universal champions of charity and compassion at all costs. We need to make ourselves "feel good" when we see suffering. And thats "feel good" at any cost including the labeling on this board of some as heartless and cruel ogers.

I am neither heartless nor cruel. I refuse to enslave others with misguided kindness and steal from them their freedom to define their personal destiny. Unlike like the mommies who saved all the Bambies and ended up starving the herd to death.

[storch]

africa is a continent comprised of 37 or so countries with wide variation in culture, climate and geography.  the problem with some african countries are the africans themselves.  if you need an example look at rhodesia and south africa, especially rhodesia now called zimbabwe.  here was a self sufficient country that was prosperous until one sector of the population took it upon themselves to drive out the minority in favor of majority rule.  rhodesia was nice and stable, zimbabwe is a cesspool.  however there are good examples of what the black africans could do in order to turn themselves around.  one clear example can be found in uganda under the able leadership of current president Yoweri Kaguta Museveni.  not all of africa is a disaster.  but it does seem that the areas the guilt ridden white western liberals are wringing their hands about and throwing money at sure are.

[storch]

Originally posted by bustr
One person or 250 million persons you cannot solve their problem from your side of the issue. The person(s) has to solve their problem or suffer their problem. If you get involved, you "might" get randomly lucky and do occassional good.

More often you will either be sucked in and become part of the problem, or you will force your cherished utopian solution upon them by force of some threat and make them a slave or a junky to your solution.

Only when the person or community is ready to solve their own problem will they change and heal themselves. At that time they also won't need your cherished plan of social utopianism because they will have found their path to self sufficiency.

Africans are still slaves to the western world because of all the aid. We don't need them to live in our homes, or toil in our feilds anymore. We have them addicted to our aid while we are addicted to our selfish "self image" as universal champions of charity and compassion at all costs. We need to make ourselves "feel good" when we see suffering. And thats "feel good" at any cost including the labeling on this board of some as heartless and cruel ogers.

I am neither heartless nor cruel. I refuse to enslave others with misguided kindness and steal from them their freedom to define their personal destiny. Unlike like the mommies who saved all the Bambies and ended up starving the herd to death.

spot on bustr but you misspelled ogre

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Tilt
I think I am with Karaya now even if he isnt with me............

Jeez guys will some of you just  read what you have written!

SEP (Somebody Elses Problem)

Denial

Mass extinction policies?


tens of thousands per day guys.....tens of thousands a day!

dont play debating games with this one.............


there is no simple solution and we (the West) cannot solve it all without African will to do so as well.............

But for sure we cannot / will not help them if we dont attempt to understand stuff..............

Is this the evil that grows when good men do nothing?

Oh I know what I've written. I did after all write it.

SEP= Yes. the Africans Problem If we want to send aid. we should send aid to the Stable and prosperous countries in africa so they might be able to raise an armies and conquer these unstable ones. Thus bringing stability.

Denial. Well aid is obviously not only not working but judging from the birthrate/deathrate only feeding the problem (no pun intended)


Mass extinction. Based on the birthrate alone. it does not appear there is any danger of extinction. Part of the problem is a runaway birthrate. With the population rise out pacing the resources. 10's of thousands a day might not be dieing if not for the 20's and 30 thousands a day being born.

If there is a danger of extinction it is because they are breeding themselves out of existance.

I say leave em alone. For thousands and thousands of years Africa did just fine on its own with its own balance. It wasnt untill we started showing up that its gotten out of whack. And since we have started "helping" its only served to make it worse.

Leave the place alone. Cut off all aid and let it balance itself out

Yes Many thousands will die. Also many thousands will live. A true balance will be restored and they will all end up stronger because of it.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
Ok smart guy how do you fix it.

I refuse to feel any guilt for a problem

Wish I new re a  fix........... and  its not a guilt thing....................if I was trying to excite some emotion (and I dont think I was) I think "concern" would be more appropriate..........

I reckon if the Western World was truely concerned then other stuff would follow........... for sure there would not be excuses constantly eminating for not doing stuff.

[Lizking]

"Concern" means dick when you are dealing with a situation that can only be solved by the persons involved.  Nothing we (the rest of the world) can do will have any other effect than assauging our collective (and undeserved) guilt and enriching local tyrants.

[Manedew]

Money isn't the answer ....it's a means to an end.... Too often money has just been given in hopes that corrupt leaders will use the money appropriatly.....

We need to invest the money in things, and see them built, and distributed.

Infastructure
__________________________


Road devlepoment, Dam's/hydro electric etc...

Schools

Effective govement

farms and irrigation meathods, and the structre to support it.... you can't have tractors without gas and parts to maintain them.  How many are still farming off an oxen driven plow?  How many have reliable irrigation meathods?


& Goods
_____________________________ __

Condom's and other birth controls are needed and should be given freely.

Medicines and even the faciclties to produce needed medicines should be built and given freely.

 

just a few basic ideas ... but point is you don't just throw money at it .... money is nothing but paper.

[bozon]

poverty in Africa can be solved in only one way that the west is not willing to accept.

The only way for those african countries to make money and raise industries is to export their goods - that means agriculture at the moment. Currently their western markets are block since US and Europian countries are protecting their local farmers. Importing good from the 3rd world at floor prices world will break many local markets and eliminate most western farmers. No western goverment will support that.

Natural resources that many african countries have will not help the population. The profits only goes to the lords and the corrupt rulers. Western "investors" in Africa only mean sweat shops, not real, locally owned industry that will give rise to a local wealthy middle class initiating more industry.

So, helping Africa require hurting yourself. It isn't going to happen and that's globalization for you.

Bozon

[GtoRA2]

concern isnt a fix.

Concern isnt even the start of a fix.


Lots of people are concerned.


Thats not a fix.


Concern without a realistic plan is not going to change anything.


Concern gets the same BS that it always has guilt money thrown away and the problem still goes on.