Author Topic: The Patriot Act and Homeland Security  (Read 1020 times)

Offline Westy

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2871
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2005, 07:27:15 AM »
"He who trades liberty for security deserves neither and will lose both.” -  Thomas Jefferson

Offline Gunthr

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3043
      • http://www.dot.squat
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2005, 07:47:58 AM »
Quote
"He who trades liberty for security deserves neither and will lose both.” - Thomas Jefferson


Very misleading in this context.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Sixpence

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5265
      • http://www.onpoi.net/ah/index.php
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2005, 07:51:21 AM »
The patriot act is a sign that the terrorists are winning
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17775
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2005, 08:16:51 AM »
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He who trades liberty for security deserves neither and will lose both.” - Thomas Jefferson
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
Originally posted by Gunthr
Very misleading in this context.


Howso?

All we had to do to prevent 9/11 was to enforce laws already in place.
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17775
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2005, 08:18:10 AM »
Chronology of the USA Patriot Act

October 24, 2001 – Less than six weeks after the 9/11 attacks and shortly after the anthrax letters to congressional offices, the U.S. House of Representatives passes the final USA Patriot Act (H.R. 3162).

October 25, 2001 – With little debate, the Senate passes the bill. Congress purposefully includes sunsets on the most contentious parts of the law, which require Congress to take a sober second look at the provisions before the end of 2005.

October 26, 2001 – President Bush signs the Patriot Act. The final bill – which becomes Public Law No. 107-56 – replaces a compromise measure agreed to unanimously by the notoriously partisan House Judiciary Committee not three weeks before. The bill, as passed, closely resembles the expansive authority initially requested by the Administration in the days after 9/11.

March 18, 2002 – Denver, Colorado becomes the first major metropolitan area to pass a resolution critical of the Patriot Act. It affirms Denver’s support for the war on terror and the city’s commitment to the Constitution.1

February 7, 2003 – Legislation drafted by the Justice Department as a sequel to the USA Patriot Act is leaked. The proposed legislation would grant federal law enforcement sweeping new powers to wiretap, detain and punish suspects while limiting court review and cloaking certain information from the public.

April 14, 2003 – Various organizations from across the political spectrum join forces in a loose-knit coalition to oppose any effort by the Administration to expand the government’s powers through a sequel to the Patriot Act, now dubbed “Son of Patriot” or “Patriot II.”

April 27, 2003 – An editorial in the Orlando Sentinel (Florida) states that the Bush Administration’s call for eliminating the sunset clause the make the Patriot Act permanent, is “not only bad faith; it’s bad policy.”2

July 22, 2003 – The House of Representatives votes overwhelmingly to support an amendment offered by Rep. “Butch” Otter (R-ID) prohibiting implementation of section 213 of the Patriot Act, which permits federal agents to search your home and confiscate property without notifying you that a search is happening. The provision is stripped from the final legislation by a conference committee.

August 21, 2003 – An editorial in the Rocky Mountain News (Denver, Colorado), urges Congress to give the Patriot Act the kind of “close scrutiny and skeptical inquiry that were absent in those panicked days following Sept. 11” when the Act was passed.2

October 2, 2003 – Senators Larry Craig (R-ID) and Richard Durbin (D-IL) introduce the bipartisan Security and Freedom Ensured (SAFE) Act that would preserve the added authority in the Patriot Act, but would surgically add more court review and other checks against abuse.

October 20, 2003 – Durham, NC, becomes the 200th city to pass a resolution in support of civil liberties and Patriot Act reform.

October 20, 2003 – An editorial in the Orange County Register (California), expresses support for the bipartisan SAFE Act.

November 18, 2003 – Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich writes in the San Francisco Chronicle that he “strongly believe(s) Congress must act now to rein in the Patriot Act, limit its use to national security concerns and prevent it from developing ‘mission creep’ into areas outside of national security.”2

January 24, 2004 – Attorney General John Ashcroft sends an extraordinary letter to Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT) saying he will advise President Bush to veto the bipartisan SAFE Act, should it pass.

February 4, 2004 – The New York City Council, sitting just a few blocks uptown from Ground Zero, passes a resolution calling for Patriot Act reform and a restoration of checks and balances.1

March 23, 2004 – The state of Maine joins Alaska, Hawaii and Vermont as the fourth to pass a statewide resolution in support of Patriot Act reform and civil liberties.1

April 25, 2004 – While acknowledging that the core of the Patriot Act is vital to fighting terrorism, an editorial in the Rocky Mountain News urges Congress to “temper the ability of law-enforcement agents to carry out searches without informing a property owner that a warrant has been issued.”2

July 8, 2004 – The House – on a tie vote -- fails to amend part of the Patriot Act that allows the government to learn the books people buy or borrow.

July 16, 2004 – Senator Jon Kyl (R-AZ) introduces a bill (Tools to Fight Terrorism Act), which bears a remarkable resemblance to the “Son of Patriot” legislation leaked from the Justice Department in February 2003. In response to overwhelming public opposition from across the political spectrum, the Senate does not consider the legislation.

July 30, 2004 – The well-publicized report of the bipartisan 9/11 Commission states that “a full and informed debate on the PATRIOT Act would be healthy.” The Commission also specifically recommends that “The burden of proof of retaining a particular government power should be on the executive, to explain (1) that the power actually materially enhances security and (b) that there is adequate supervision of the executive’s use of the powers to ensure protection of civil liberties . . . to properly confine its use.”

September 22, 2004 – Bob Barr testifies before the Senate Judiciary Committee that the “post-9/11 debate over civil liberties is the most important issue faced by America in a generation.” Noting that he voted for the Patriot Act because he believed the Administration would respect Congress’ inclusion of sunsets, he now urges the Senate to rein in the Patriot Act by passing the SAFE Act since it is clear the Administration is vigorously campaigning to have the sunset provisions made permanent.

September 29, 2004 – A federal judge in New York rules that the section of the Patriot Act expanding the FBI’s ability to demand information from Internet services providers without judicial oversight or public review is unconstitutional.

October 4, 2004 – The In Defense of Freedom Coalition sends a letter to Congress outlining issues that should be considered as legislation is drafted based on the 9/11 Commission recommendations. The letter warns that there may be unintended negative consequences for privacy and civil liberties if precautions are not taken.

December 17, 2004 – Bush signs a bill prompted by the 9/11 Commission’s report, which includes law enforcement provisions augmenting the Patriot Act even though they were never called for by the 9/11 Commission. One provision gives the FBI unchecked power to demand disclosure of financial records and other information, without the approval of an independent judge and without proof of a connection between the individual and a terrorist group.

February 14, 2005 – At a swearing-in ceremony for Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, President Bush asks Congress to immediately make the entire Patriot Act permanent.

March 22, 2005 – Leading conservative organizations, led by former Republican Congressman Bob Barr, launch a new alliance -- Patriots to Restore Checks and Balances – to urge Congress to review those provisions of the Patriot Act that are up for renewal in 2005 to bring them in-line with the Constitution. Patriots to Restore Checks and Balances sends a letter to President Bush urging him to reconsider his blanket support for making the Patriot Act permanent.
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4287
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2005, 08:20:42 AM »
One day later and you're already using that tragedy to attempt to make a point to re-legislate that bill.

Wow.
-SW

Offline Gunthr

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3043
      • http://www.dot.squat
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2005, 08:26:24 AM »
Quote
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He who trades liberty for security deserves neither and will lose both.” - Thomas Jefferson
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gunthr
Very misleading in this context.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Howso?

All we had to do to prevent 9/11 was to enforce laws already in place.


__________________




Well, consider the very high security of Israel's El Al airlines.  You definately give up some liberty when travelling with them - in exchange for the very good security.  Does that mean that you deserve neither liberty OR security?  

No. It just means that you are not stupid.

And what about a military unit in a combat zone that sets up security on the perimeter - restricting liberty for the sake of protection and security?


In this context the quote implies that any person who gives up any liberties that would allow the prevention of terrorist attacks deserve neither liberty OR security.  I don't believe that is the spirit of Jefferson's words.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2005, 08:31:38 AM »
I am not for losing liberty in the faint hope that the government, given more power over citizens lives, will then be able to protect us.

lazs

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17775
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2005, 08:35:41 AM »
The Patriot Act increases the governments surveillance powers in four areas:

Records searches. It expands the government's ability to look at records on an individual's activity being held by a third parties. (Section 215)
Secret searches. It expands the government's ability to search private property without notice to the owner. (Section 213)
Intelligence searches. It expands a narrow exception to the Fourth Amendment that had been created for the collection of foreign intelligence information (Section 218).
"Trap and trace" searches. It expands another Fourth Amendment exception for spying that collects "addressing" information about the origin and destination of communications, as opposed to the content (Section 214).
1. Expanded access to personal records held by third parties

One of the most significant provisions of the Patriot Act makes it far easier for the authorities to gain access to records of citizens' activities being held by a third party. At a time when computerization is leading to the creation of more and more such records, Section 215 of the Patriot Act allows the FBI to force anyone at all - including doctors, libraries, bookstores, universities, and Internet service providers - to turn over records on their clients or customers.

Unchecked power
The result is unchecked government power to rifle through individuals' financial records, medical histories, Internet usage, bookstore purchases, library usage, travel patterns, or any other activity that leaves a record. Making matters worse:

The government no longer has to show evidence that the subjects of search orders are an "agent of a foreign power," a requirement that previously protected Americans against abuse of this authority.
The FBI does not even have to show a reasonable suspicion that the records are related to criminal activity, much less the requirement for "probable cause" that is listed in the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. All the government needs to do is make the broad assertion that the request is related to an ongoing terrorism or foreign intelligence investigation.
Judicial oversight of these new powers is essentially non-existent. The government must only certify to a judge - with no need for evidence or proof - that such a search meets the statute's broad criteria, and the judge does not even have the authority to reject the application.
Surveillance orders can be based in part on a person's First Amendment activities, such as the books they read, the Web sites they visit, or a letter to the editor they have written.
A person or organization forced to turn over records is prohibited from disclosing the search to anyone. As a result of this gag order, the subjects of surveillance never even find out that their personal records have been examined by the government. That undercuts an important check and balance on this power: the ability of individuals to challenge illegitimate searches.
Why the Patriot Act's expansion of records searches is unconstitutional
Section 215 of the Patriot Act violates the Constitution in several ways. It:

Violates the Fourth Amendment, which says the government cannot conduct a search without obtaining a warrant and showing probable cause to believe that the person has committed or will commit a crime.
Violates the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech by prohibiting the recipients of search orders from telling others about those orders, even where there is no real need for secrecy.
Violates the First Amendment by effectively authorizing the FBI to launch investigations of American citizens in part for exercising their freedom of speech.
Violates the Fourth Amendmentby failing to provide notice - even after the fact - to persons whose privacy has been compromised. Notice is also a key element of due process, which is guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment.
2. More secret searches

For centuries, common law has required that the government can't go into your property without telling you, and must therefore give you notice before it executes a search. That "knock and announce" principle has long been recognized as a part of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution.

The Patriot Act, however, unconstitutionally amends the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure to allow the government to conduct searches without notifying the subjects, at least until long after the search has been executed. This means that the government can enter a house, apartment or office with a search warrant when the occupants are away, search through their property, take photographs, and in some cases even seize property - and not tell them until later.

Notice is a crucial check on the government's power because it forces the authorities to operate in the open, and allows the subject of searches to protect their Fourth Amendment rights. For example, it allows them to point out irregularities in a warrant, such as the fact that the police are at the wrong address, or that the scope of the warrant is being exceeded (for example, by rifling through dresser drawers in a search for a stolen car). Search warrants often contain limits on what may be searched, but when the searching officers have complete and unsupervised discretion over a search, a property owner cannot defend his or her rights.

Finally, this new "sneak and peek" power can be applied as part of normal criminal investigations; it has nothing to do with fighting terrorism or collecting foreign intelligence.

                                                                           (continued)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2005, 08:47:35 AM by DREDIOCK »
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17775
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2005, 08:36:24 AM »
3. Expansion of the intelligence exception in wiretap law

Under the Patriot Act, the FBI can secretly conduct a physical search or wiretap on American citizens to obtain evidence of crime without proving probable cause, as the Fourth Amendment explicitly requires.

A 1978 law called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) created an exception to the Fourth Amendment's requirement for probable cause when the purpose of a wiretap or search was to gather foreign intelligence. The rationale was that since the search was not conducted for the purpose of gathering evidence to put someone on trial, the standards could be loosened. In a stark demonstration of why it can be dangerous to create exceptions to fundamental rights, however, the Patriot Act expanded this once-narrow exception to cover wiretaps and searches that DO collect evidence for regular domestic criminal cases. FISA previously allowed searches only if the primary purpose was to gather foreign intelligence. But the Patriot Act changes the law to allow searches when "a significant purpose" is intelligence. That lets the government circumvent the Constitution's probable cause requirement even when its main goal is ordinary law enforcement.

The eagerness of many in law enforcement to dispense with the requirements of the Fourth Amendment was revealed in August 2002 by the secret court that oversees domestic intelligence spying (the "FISA Court"). Making public one of its opinions for the first time in history, the court revealed that it had rejected an attempt by the Bush Administration to allow criminal prosecutors to use intelligence warrants to evade the Fourth Amendment entirely. The court also noted that agents applying for warrants had regularly filed false and misleading information. That opinion is now on appeal.

4. Expansion of the "pen register" exception in wiretap law

Another exception to the normal requirement for probable cause in wiretap law is also expanded by the Patriot Act. Years ago, when the law governing telephone wiretaps was written, a distinction was created between two types of surveillance. The first allows surveillance of the content or meaning of a communication, and the second only allows monitoring of the transactional or addressing information attached to a communication. It is like the difference between reading the address printed on the outside of a letter, and reading the letter inside, or listening to a phone conversation and merely recording the phone numbers dialed and received.

Wiretaps limited to transactional or addressing information are known as "Pen register/trap and trace" searches (for the devices that were used on telephones to collect telephone numbers). The requirements for getting a PR/TT warrant are essentially non-existent: the FBI need not show probable cause or even reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. It must only certify to a judge - without having to prove it - that such a warrant would be "relevant" to an ongoing criminal investigation. And the judge does not even have the authority to reject the application.

The Patriot Act broadens the pen register exception in two ways:

"Nationwide" pen register warrants
Under the Patriot Act PR/TT orders issued by a judge are no longer valid only in that judge's jurisdiction, but can be made valid anywhere in the United States. This "nationwide service" further marginalizes the role of the judiciary, because a judge cannot meaningfully monitor the extent to which his or her order is being used. In addition, this provision authorizes the equivalent of a blank warrant: the court issues the order, and the law enforcement agent fills in the places to be searched. That is a direct violation of the Fourth Amendment's explicit requirement that warrants be written "particularly describing the place to be searched."

Pen register searches applied to the Internet
The Patriot Act applies the distinction between transactional and content-oriented wiretaps to the Internet. The problem is that it takes the weak standards for access to transactional data and applies them to communications that are far more than addresses. On an e-mail message, for example, law enforcement has interpreted the "header" of a message to be transactional information accessible with a PR/TT warrant. But in addition to routing information, e-mail headers include the subject line, which is part of the substance of a communication - on a letter, for example, it would clearly be inside the envelope.

The government also argues that the transactional data for Web surfing is a list of the URLs or Web site addresses that a person visits. For example, it might record the fact that they visited "www.aclu.org" at 1:15 in the afternoon, and then skipped over to "www.fbi.gov" at 1:30. This claim that URLs are just addressing data breaks down in two different ways:

Web addresses are rich and revealing content. The URLs or "addresses" of the Web pages we read are not really addresses, they are the titles of documents that we download from the Internet. When we "visit" a Web page what we are really doing is downloading that page from the Internet onto our computer, where it is displayed. Therefore, the list of URLs that we visit during a Web session is really a list of the documents we have downloaded - no different from a list of electronic books we might have purchased online. That is much richer information than a simple list of the people we have communicated with; it is intimate information that reveals who we are and what we are thinking about - much more like the content of a phone call than the number dialed. After all, it is often said that reading is a "conversation" with the author.
Web addresses contain communications sent by a surfer. URLs themselves often have content embedded within them. A search on the Google search engine, for example, creates a page with a custom-generated URL that contains material that is clearly private content, such as: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=sexual+orientation
Similarly, if I fill out an online form - to purchase goods or register my preferences, for example - those products and preferences will often be identified in the resulting URL.

The erosion of accountability

Attempts to find out how the new surveillance powers created by the Patriot Act were implemented during their first year were in vain. In June 2002 the House Judiciary Committee demanded that the Department of Justice answer questions about how it was using its new authority. The Bush/Ashcroft Justice Department essentially refused to describe how it was implementing the law; it left numerous substantial questions unanswered, and classified others without justification. In short, not only has the Bush Administration undermined judicial oversight of government spying on citizens by pushing the Patriot Act into law, but it is also undermining another crucial check and balance on surveillance powers: accountability to Congress and the public.

Non-surveillance provisions

Although this fact sheet focuses on the direct surveillance provisions of the Patriot Act, citizens should be aware that the act also contains a number of other provisions. The Act:

Puts CIA back in business of spying on Americans. The Patriot Act gives the Director of Central Intelligence the power to identify domestic intelligence requirements. That opens the door to the same abuses that took place in the 1970s and before, when the CIA engaged in widespread spying on protest groups and other Americans.
Creates a new crime of "domestic terrorism." The Patriot Act transforms protesters into terrorists if they engage in conduct that "involves acts dangerous to human life" to "influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion." How long will it be before an ambitious or politically motivated prosecutor uses the statute to charge members of controversial activist groups like Operation Rescue or Greenpeace with terrorism? Under the Patriot Act, providing lodging or assistance to such "terrorists" exposes a person to surveillance or prosecution. Furthermore, the law gives the attorney general and the secretary of state the power to detain or deport any non-citizen who belongs to or donates money to one of these broadly defined "domestic terrorist" groups.
Allows for the indefinite detention of non-citizens. The Patriot Act gives the attorney general unprecedented new power to determine the fate of immigrants. The attorney general can order detention based on a certification that he or she has "reasonable grounds to believe" a non-citizen endangers national security. Worse, if the foreigner does not have a country that will accept them, they can be detained indefinitely without trial.
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline Gunthr

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3043
      • http://www.dot.squat
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2005, 08:46:00 AM »
I'm leary of giving broad reaching powers to the government in the name of security too.  At the same time, I'm resigned to the fact that people will demand security from terrorism and that means that there will be a trade-off.  It s all a matter of degree.

We don't really have to discuss that now, though.  American citizens will demand it shortly after we have another major attack right here in America.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17775
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2005, 08:53:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunthr
Quote

Well, consider the very high security of Israel's El Al airlines.  You definately give up some liberty when travelling with them - in exchange for the very good security.  Does that mean that you deserve neither liberty OR security?  

No. It just means that you are not stupid.

And what about a military unit in a combat zone that sets up security on the perimeter - restricting liberty for the sake of protection and security?


In this context the quote implies that any person who gives up any liberties that would allow the prevention of terrorist attacks deserve neither liberty OR security.  I don't believe that is the spirit of Jefferson's words. [/B]


I agree with you in that context
But your entire arguement hinges on  laws and protocols that were largely already in place
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline Dago

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5324
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2005, 09:06:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunthr
I'm leary of giving broad reaching powers to the government in the name of security too.  At the same time, I'm resigned to the fact that people will demand security from terrorism and that means that there will be a trade-off.  It s all a matter of degree.

We don't really have to discuss that now, though.  American citizens will demand it shortly after we have another major attack right here in America.


Quite right.

dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Gunthr

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3043
      • http://www.dot.squat
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2005, 09:06:19 AM »
sorry Dred, I'm not really part of the debate about your points...  it just bothered me when somebody (west) throws out a quote that supposedly has some meaning related to the situation.

I'm afraid of big government and abuses too,  and I don't trust any of our politicians.  I'm against knee jerk politician's remedies where they think they can fix something by passing another law.  But I'm ignorant about the details that you are talking about - still checking it out.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18811
The Patriot Act and Homeland Security
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2005, 09:07:38 AM »
the gov ain't the bad guy here - it is the cheekboness whose actions reguire/allow the gov to enact the Pat Act

you hold the govs feet to the fire when an attack occurs and whine at every attempt they take to prevent it... can't have it both ways

sounds like some of you are ok with terrorism as long as you do not lose your "freedoms" - lol
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder