Spit and 109 Update

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Karnak
Not with a bubble canopy it can't, nor at +25lbs boost.

Sure it can, it's not such a big stretch considering what does stand in for other aircraft as things are at the moment.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
The K-4 @ 1.98 should be a perked a/c. Compared to the number of K-4s @ 1.80 it was only 'penny pocket' in numbers.

There`s information on 1.98ata(2000HP)  K-4s/G-10s on my site :

http://www.kurfurst.atw.hu/

Briefly, OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45 and Niederscrhrif Nr. 6730. Daimler-Benz AG,  Sektor Entwicklung. 20.1.45 shows that a single Gruppe, II./JG 11 converted to 1.98ata for operational testing in January 1945, with four other Gruppe employed on the Western front, ie. I./JG 27, III./JG 27, III./JG 53, IV./JG 53, converting to 1.98ata in March 1945.

Each Luftwaffe Gruppe (=Wing) would contain 3-4 fighter squadrons (4 Gruppe => 12-16 Squadrons), with a Gruppe`s typical established strenght of 68 aircraft (inc. reserves) at that time.

LW strenght reports show for these last four Gruppe as per 9th April 1945 that 142 examples of G-10/K-4s were effected with the boost increase of 1.98ata, 79 of them being servicable at the time.

Considering the operational numbers of the perked Spitfire XIVs (5 Sqns, plus two recces for about 60-80 aircraft), it seems feasible to perk the 1.98ata 109K-4s and the Mk XIVs, leaving the basic 1.8ata K-4/G-10 a non perked plane, as it was quite widespread in the Luftwaffe (1700 being produced of K-4, 2600 of G-10).

Ie. bf 109 strenght 31 Jan 1945, first line units only :

Bf 109 G-6 : 71
Bf 109 G14 and G-14/U4  : 431
Bf 109 G-10, G-10/U4 and G-14/AS :568
Bf 109 G-10/R6 : 51 (bad weather version)
Bf 109 K-4 : 314

1435 Bf 109s

So 314 K-4s at the time Jan 1945, ca every 4th Bf 109 was K-4, probably increased further (Dec 1944 there was 200).

[1K3]

I think HTC should keep the current engine rating for spit 1 and 109E for balance purposes.

[Wotan]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
That all depends... there were the G-14 with small supercharger, and the G-14/AS with the large(high alt) supercharger, the same one from DB 603G used on the G-10/K-4.

The G-14/AS and G-10 were almost identical in performance, ie. the former did 680 kph at 7.5km, the latter 685-690 at the same altitude. Of course the G-10 had the 605D engine, which could run either 1800/2000HP, while the G-14/AS`s 605ASM could only run at 1800HP (it was an interim solution to the 605D enigne)

Yup I mentioned the AS types here:

If AH does a true G-10 then it can fill in for the AS engined 109s.

Since the G-6/AS production wasn't that significant, at least not as many produced as the G-14/AS, the most logical AS to model would be the G-14/AS.

Since AH has the G-10 it would be reasonable to use the G-10 as a sub for the G-14. Doing a G-14/AS would be some what redundant provided in AH that they re-do the G-10s to match a true G-10 rather then the G-10/K-4 hybrid they have now.

So my suggest would be:

The one late war 109 AH needs is the 109G-14.

None AS of course.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by 1K3
I think HTC should keep the current engine rating for spit 1 and 109E for balance purposes.

Spit 1 is mainly used for the BoB scenario, Spits were rated 12lbs boost for the BoB. Could see your point if we were talking about the MkII that seen limited use during the final weeks.
Current 6lbs boost rating is a 1939 Spit, even then they quickly uprated it when the 100 fuel became readily available.

[1K3]

Would 109F-2 fit for this game?

1941 109F-2 has the same dimensions of 1942 109F-4, but F-2 has 15mm hub cannon and a bit less powerful engine.

[Hoarach]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Spit 1 is mainly used for the BoB scenario, Spits were rated 12lbs boost for the BoB. Could see your point if we were talking about the MkII that seen limited use during the final weeks.
Current 6lbs boost rating is a 1939 Spit, even then they quickly uprated it when the 100 fuel became readily available.

Ill have to disagree with you, Ive seen spit 1s and emils in the MA against my 38 and they turn out to be great 1v1s.  More afraid of the emil though because of the cannon and it has great abilities turning with other planes.  Before BoB started, about 2-3 weeks before 75% of the time I flew spit 1s and occasionaly the emil.  I found that once I get on nme plane I will usually shoot them down especially I found that the spit 1 is great against ponies when you are actually going to close enough to shoot and make them turn and cv craft because cv craft are usually slow and low on the deck.  Most people I see say that the spit 1 guns suck and I disagree because I found them to be very lethal.  With flying the spit 1,  I was able to get 2-3 kills each flight and occasionaly more but the problem was with the plane being slow that it was hard to get away from big fights and occasionaly I would be able to land those kills (got major perks for the kills, no less than 10 for 2 give or take the perk point bonus that night).  I didnt fly the emil that much because I was on the British side of the scenario but when I did I found it a great early war plane to fly because of its turning capabilities.  Its speed wasnt so great and the guns were halfway decent but it was great agaisnt pretty much any aircraft that was willing to fight.

When fighting rooks one night I encountered a emil and a dora coalt.  I found that with the 2 vs my 38, the dora would just make the 1 pass haul *** type of thing.  So when the dora would make a pass it would put its nose down under me and I would make a couple shots on the canopy area and it seems that after he made 3 passes it gave him a pilot wound because he just ran forgetting his emil buddy.  The emil stayed the entire time willing to fight ever since they both engaged me and we ended up having a great 1v1.  Forget the pilots name but whoever it was because that emil was a tough fight for my 38.

[Squire]

Only thing about a +25 boost 1944 Spit LF IX, is that we have the Spit XIV already. You cant use a +25 boost Spit in a 43-early 44 setup, where the LF IX is suposed to "fill".  The Spit LF IX takes you from Spring 43-Fall 44 where you can add Tempests and Spit XIVs, and Mustang IIIs.

I think we will be lucky to get one additional model each of the Spit and 109, and the more exotic models get too late into 1944 sometimes to be usefull "gap fillers". Have a hard look at that.

If we get more than that hooray, but I would focus on one type, maybe two at the most, rather than an exhaustive laundry list of almost every varient and sub-type.

If you had ONE which would you pick?

*Btw all the fancy math calcs for perking planes is interesting, but HTC doesnt perk them or not based on what air force had X # operational vs Y x Z= whatever.  They are perked for how "hot" they are as fighters, and the perk system is simply a "control valve" on over use in the MA. Its a judgement call that they make.

[Karnak]

Squire,

That is why I favor the Spitfire LF.Mk VIIIc at +18lbs boost and Bf109G-14 as the most complete gap coverage and reducing the Spitfire Mk Vb to +12lbs boost from +16lbs boost.

That is my minimalist take on it.

[Wotan]

A Spit Vc @ 16lbs boost is a Spifire I would consider as 'needed' in AH.

16lbs was cleared in July/August '42.

The problem comes in if you try to do run anything prior to July/August '42.

I agree with Kurfürst in that a good set of match ups would be:

1941
Spit Vb, +12lbs, vs. 109F-2 MG151/15

1942
Spit Vc, +16lbs vs. 109F-4 MG 151/20 at 1.42ata

I owuld also get rid of the gondolas option for the 109F-4, they were hardly ever used.

But lets be honest HT and crew aren't to worried about 'match-ups' (or at least what we would consider good match-ups anyway).

Once they modelled the Spit V with 16lbs boost its gonna stay that way and I doubt they will model another Spit V.

I would guess the only new Spit (if you get one at all) will be some clipped-wing  version of something.

I would also bet there is little chance in hell of seeing a G-14.

[Squire]

I think im actually leaning towards a Spit LF IXc at 18 lbs for TOD. Standard wingtips.

Just add the type they used for NW ETO, Spit LF IXc and be done with it.  

If and when we ever get a PAC TOD, ask for the VIII then.  It wont be for a while....

LF IX was also used in the Med, so its good there too.

If they want to add a second type, my pick would be a late 1944 Spit LF XVIE clipped wing with 25 lbs boost and the .50 caliber/20mm arm.

*Karnak, I was going to add there is something else to consider as well which has nothing to do with performance, but aesthetics. If TOD is going to be ETO...and we get a new Spit IX 3d model, wouldnt it be nice to have the skins for it be able to match the model? Otherwise you have a Spit VIII being skinned as a Spit IX. Ya its a small consideration, but I would kinda like to see a 443 Sqn RCAF Spit IX skin on the actual a/c.

[MiloMorai]

Kurfy,

III./JG 27 has G-10s or K-4s? Your site lists one type in one part and the other type in another part.

"12.     III./JG 27      Bf 109 G-10,     no change,      boost increase to 1.98 ata"

"III./JG 27,     19,     15,      Bf 109 K and some 109 Gs"

To say that II./JG11 was equiped with K-4s is misrepresentation for "II. Gruppe of the Jagdgeschwader 11 than a pure combat unit, and which had eleven Bf 109K-4s and thirty-eight Bf 109G-14s on strenght (plus a single G-6/U2) on the 1st January 1945" This is only a staffel of K-4s.

To further that the K-4 @ 1.98 should be perked, Olivier Lefebvre " As for the fuel supply, I own copies showing detailed stockpile status for February-April 1945... But yes the C3 was definitely scarce."

[Angus]

Ehm, - this from Kurfie:
"1435 Bf 109s" in January  1945.

Seems a bit high, considering that it's a higher number than the number of launched aircraft (800+?) at operation Bodenplatte. Those were of more sorts, and had been saved for the operation.

And this from Squire, - pondering about it:
"Only thing about a +25 boost 1944 Spit LF IX, is that we have the Spit XIV already. You cant use a +25 boost Spit in a 43-early 44 setup, where the LF IX is suposed to "fill""

Our AH XIV is in the regard of climb, at least, a bit of an underdog compared to RL performance (Quill)
Take it to 20K, it's some 15-20% too slow on the clock, thereby being slower than the AH 109G2 and a RL Spit IX + 25, which made it to 20K in as little as 4 mins 50 secs or so.
So, a RL performing Spit IX with +25 would practically render the XIV we have useless, - less it would be promoted into a later type

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Angus
Ehm, - this from Kurfie:
"1435 Bf 109s" in January  1945.

Seems a bit high, considering that it's a higher number than the number of launched aircraft (800+?) at operation Bodenplatte. Those were of more sorts, and had been saved for the operation.

LW OoB as of Jan 10 1945 has 1462 servicable single-engined fighters.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/LWOB45.html

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Angus
Ehm, - this from Kurfie:
"1435 Bf 109s" in January  1945.

Seems a bit high, considering that it's a higher number than the number of launched aircraft (800+?) at operation Bodenplatte. Those were of more sorts, and had been saved for the operation.

Take the list what it is : a listing of on-hand Bf 109 (and other) types in Jan 1945. Keep in mind fighter production skyrocketed at that time, at the expense of other types, and about 2500-3000 of them were pumped out every month.

It includes servicable and non-servicable, but does not include secondline/reserve units. In the ENTIRE Luftwaffe, East just as well as in the West, Italy or even Norway. 109K units were of course, mostly on the West. From what I seen, servicability was on avarage 70% in 1944/45, but this figure was quite steady during the war, and I would except similiar or perhaps a bit better figures for the Allies.

And as for Bodenplatte, I don`t see any contradiction in 800 fighters being launched and 1400 being available (probably less, as this figure is for one month later), but some of that 1400 being somewhere, ie. in East Prussia or in northern Italy.