Spit and 109 Update

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Karnak
Squire,

That is why I favor the Spitfire LF.Mk VIIIc at +18lbs boost and Bf109G-14 as the most complete gap coverage and reducing the Spitfire Mk Vb to +12lbs boost from +16lbs boost.

That is my minimalist take on it.

Still leaves a 1944/45 FREE Spit gap.

Thats why the XVI would be needed.

[Magoo]

Gee, looks like the Spit has hit the fan...

hyuk hyuk (I kill me)

Magoo

[Squire]

We need a new sub-bb called "Order Of Battle" hehe. For all the "pen time" that we go on about it.

But I digress...

You know what would really work easiest? a Spit LF IXc with a "twin" (same 3d model, armament ect), but call it "Late-Spit LF IXc" and it has 25 lbs boost as a 2nd TAF fighter.

Then add a 109G-14 (based on the 109G-6 we have+ its special features) and your done.

Damn, I should work for HTC im too smart by 1/2.

[Kweassa]

Our AH XIV is in the regard of climb, at least, a bit of an underdog compared to RL performance (Quill)
Take it to 20K, it's some 15-20% too slow on the clock, thereby being slower than the AH 109G2 and a RL Spit IX + 25, which made it to 20K in as little as 4 mins 50 secs or so.
So, a RL performing Spit IX with +25 would practically render the XIV we have useless, - less it would be promoted into a later type

 I've seen the former thread when you posted the results of this testing.

 However, the claimed test speeds are in direct contradiction with AH1 charts.



 The AH1 Spit14 outclimbs the Bf109G-2 at all altituces. The only alt range the Bf109G-2 even remotely comes close to the climb rate of the Spit14, is at 13~16k range.

 Therefore, either charts are wrong, or your test is flawed. If it's the former, then it's a FM problem and HTC should correct it.

 Another possibility is that the Bf109G-2 got a boost in climb rate with AH2. But my opinion is that it is HIGHLY unlikely that HTC would boost a plane and then not tell us about it.

 Frankly Angus, I find it hard to believe that HTC would model in a plane and then put up a chart that does not match it.

[Karnak]

Kweassa,

The Spitfire Mk XIV got an acceleration/climb rate reduction in AH2 and it's WEP expires at 5 minutes whereas the Bf109G-2 has 10 minutes of WEP.

[Squire]

It is true that using "WEP" for lack of a better term, does bring some of the "older" fighters closer into line with a later varient, but remember those stats are limited to the emergency settings only.

Ex. A Spit XIV can happily go at max "standard" boosts for quite some time, and easily outpace a LF IX on "standard" settings, with no worries about emergency limits.

If you were out hunting for low level Me262s over NW Europe, you would still be much better off in a Tempest or a XIV, compared to a IX.  A LF IX for a short time can "go through the gate" at +25 lbs for an emergency run, but that doesnt make it equivilant to a XIV.

[Kweassa]

Wasn't Angus' test done during AH1 days? Or is it a lot later than that?

 One thing for certain, we need those updated performance charts to be sure of anything.

 Otherwise, a confirmation from HTC that some planes had their FMs changed so that speed/climb numbers were also changed, would be also good.

 But to this date I've never actually seen HT confirming that some planes had their FM changed. We all know that attitude and feel of some planes did change, but was the change big enough to make former chart numbers moot?

[1K3]

Guys, are we all shure about this...? I've been reading this thread and we all have come up with great ideas for HTC's next update.

(next update)

list (some are copy-pasted in this thread)

SPITFIRES

-Spit Ia (CS, 100 octane)
-Spit 5b (+12 boost only)
-Spitfire F.Mk IXc (remove the options for the .50 cals, rockets and 250lb bombs, otherwise keep it as it is with Merlin 61 at +15lbs boost.)
-Spit LF VIII b (Merlin 66 Std boost, broad chord pointed rudder, possibly short span ailerons)
-Spit LF XVIe (Merlin 266 25lbs boost, clipped wings, broad chord pointy tail, and just for aesthetics a bubble canopy.)
-Spit F XIV c (Our current but increase to 21lbs boost (make perks worth it)

-Seafire 3 (replace seafire 2 with this)

Bf-109s

-109 E-4/N (the counterpart for spitfire 1 100 octane)
-109 F-4 (remove the GONDOLAS to reflect the "real" 109Fs)
-109 G-2
-109 G-6
-109 G-10 (Edit: use different eng for 109G-10, otherwise keep the current G-10 and add 109G-14)
-109 K-4 (at 1.80ata and MK 108. Edit: we might not neeed the K-4 if HTC keeps the current 109G-10)



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Looks like we're done with spits and 109s. How about the Fw-190s? It seems there's (IMHO) a gap and flight/speed/climb conflicts on some 190 models.

[Karnak]

1K3,

Well, "Bf109G-10" does not describe a stardardized model.  Some Bf109G-10s were on par with the Bf109G-14 and some on par with the Bf109K-4 and some in between. It depended on which engine and what changes to the airframe that they had.  The Bf109K-4 was created to standardize the Bf109 production on one model that incorporated all of the improvements in the various late G models and submodels.

On that count our Bf109G-10 is just a very top end Bf109G-10 and that happens to pretty well match the Bf109K-4 in performance.  The advantage that doing it with the Bf109G-10 instead of the Bf109K-4 is that it allows the 20mm gun option for people who prefer it to the 30mm gun.

[Squire]

Nice list IK3, but its doubtfull we will see such a large # of varients included. We can dream though.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Karnak
Kweassa,

The Spitfire Mk XIV got an acceleration/climb rate reduction in AH2 and it's WEP expires at 5 minutes whereas the Bf109G-2 has 10 minutes of WEP.

The Spit`s 5mins I understand. 5mins was max for combat power.

Now the G-2... what power does it runs? 3min was for 1.42ata WEP (which was not allowed for a time in it`s real service), 30min for 1.3ata military.
10 mins may come from the allowed limit of operation for db605a at 115 celsius...

[Angus]

I made my climb test in AH II.
109G2 is basically on par with Spitfire XIV, and the XIV is somewhat slower to 20K than 5 minutes.
A mk IX on +25 will top that, although not having the same top speed mind you.
I'll try to find the time to check again, can't find the numbers at the moment.
Or, of course, if anyone of you guys has some time, feel welcome. Always pressed for time you see.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
The Spit`s 5mins I understand. 5mins was max for combat power.

Now the G-2... what power does it runs? 3min was for 1.42ata WEP (which was not allowed for a time in it`s real service), 30min for 1.3ata military.
10 mins may come from the allowed limit of operation for db605a at 115 celsius...

Yes, the Spit's time is correct, but it's performance seems subpar for  a Mk XIV.

I don't know what ata the Bf109G-2 is at though.  I'll see if I can find it for you tonight if somebody else doesn't post it first.

[1K3]

Originally posted by Squire
Nice list IK3, but its doubtfull we will see such a large # of varients included. We can dream though.

if HTC wants to keep the lineup simple, they can just throw 1943 (or 1944) Spitfire LF IX and 1944 Bf-109G-14. Little mods can be made for these 2 xtra variants.

Just chop few feet of spit F 9 wings and add a bit more powerful Merlin engine then you'll have spit LF 9. Add 109G-6 with MW-50 and you'll have a G-14.

2 easy add-ons, but still leaves some gaps.

If HTC decides to add spit LF 8 and LF 16, there's no need to add spit LF 9

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
The Spit`s 5mins I understand. 5mins was max for combat power.

The 5 min was only a suggested limited. The time limit depended on the oil and water temperatures. Unlike the DBs which would have bad things happen after 10 minutes, the Merlin/Griffon could be safely go past the 5 minutes.