Author Topic: My 2 cents (and appology)  (Read 761 times)

Offline miko2d

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My 2 cents (and appology)
« on: September 15, 2001, 07:59:00 PM »
My two cents as someone with a little experience related to the Afganistan situation.

 US does not have enough troops to occupy Afghanistan and block it's borders.
 Russian army could not do that and for Russia casualties were not a problem.

 The EMP will not knock them out for good. Most of their way of life will not be affected and a lot of potential allies will not forgive us for using a nuke.
 We could knock out their infrastructure with  cruise missles and airstrikes for much the same effect.
 The afghanis are formidable fighters. They use extremely effective weapons and tactics that do not depend on much communication and coordination. Dumb and controlled landmines were used by them to great effect. They use time-controlled missle/mortar systems (it is set up and shoots when the guerilla's are far away). They have plenty of AA machineguns and AK-47th. Believe my, no body armor or helmet will ever protect you from 0.75 cal bullet fired from a century-old musket - it does not matter if it even penetrates.
 We could send commando raids on them, but if we know the location, why not just bomb it?

 Speaking of potential allies.
 When Castro captured took power in Cuba, stole the property from lawfull owners and made cuban people work for him, most of the world were only too happy to buy from him.
 How many of americans proudly smoked bootlegged cuban sigars? Personally I do not see much difference between stealing and buying stolen property.
 How about our own people? Have you been to Union Square recently? Sh@tload of people demanding love not war, stop to US atrocities and harrasing of peacefull freedom-fighters everywhere.

 We need allies. We want other countries to forsake their economic relationships and help us eradicate world terrorism which is all connected.
 I guess our best ally is and always been Britain. Do you know that most of the financing the IRA was receiving came from US?
  How many people are in jail for sending money to IRA? Shouldn't we start really imposing the laws protecting our friends before we go to them for help?
 The jewish uprising in Warsaw Ghetto started with extermination of known and suspected collaborators. We should clean our house first and secure our back before we srike. And I do not mean gays/lesbians, pro-choicers, ACLU and atheist sinners that brough the wrath of God to this country. I mean the people who donated a penny to the cause. Who harbored terrorists and gave them real support.

 I would not rush with retaliatory strike.
 First, any rush job is likely to cost us many US soldiers and last time I checked, we did not have any expendable.

 Second, the initiative is in terrorist's hands now. US is still as soft target as it was a week ago. Thay may not be able to hijack a plane anymore but blowing up public places, sabotaging railroads, briges, communication and power infrastructure, water supplies - nothing could be easier.

 We have to let military formulate a good plan before they strike.
 We have to rebuild our intelligence which can take a few years.

 We have to check everything and everyone in USA, terror-proof the country, introduce soviet-like unfakeable identification cards, surveilance and checkpoints everywhere.
 We may still be remain democratic, but say hello to police state, guys. Bye-bye privacy...

 What we should do right now is start respecting and imposing our laws.
 If you call a fake bomb threat, you go to jail for the full 25 years. If you send money to any terrorist organisation in the world, you go to jail. If you collect money for terrorist organisation, you get extradited to the country where it operates to be judjed there as a terrorist.

 We have to look real hard at people making terrorist's operations possible. They keep their money in the bank like all of us. They buy their equipment from private companies. We should trace those connections and cut them off.
 If a Swiss bank keeps terrorist money, we should violate whtever privasy laws they have there and stop it. And we do not need to cruis-missle the bank building to do that.
 Unlike the hard-core terrorists, the bankers do that for money. Just allow one of our friends from Mossad to pay a visit to a director of such bank and the rest will get their priorities straight real fast.

 Also, stop the drug war. We could not win that one and terrorists are cooperating with drug cartels even though they have no common goal.
 Before we start the second war, let's stop terrorising columbia pesants and governments that could be our allies.

 Whatever it's goung to be (unless we roll over and surrender) it will take generations and lot's of casualties. We better get prepared.

 What do you guys think about draft - 6 month (3 mo bootcamp + 3 mo practice) for US men and women. Not to send oversees but to prepare for hardship ahead and teach to deal with it?

 As long as I am at it, Juliani sounded great and Bush spoke the only righ words but did not sound nearly as impressive. Remember - he is our executive power. His job is not to sound nice on TV - we have professional anchors/entertainers for that. His job is to coordinate a team of professionals (his cabinet) wich is probably the best this country ever saw.

 About stupid slogans. I wish I could say  that I stand proud to be american. That would be a lie.
 I stand american in shame. The enemy has intiative. The enemy used own own stupidity and conceit. The enemy is better prepared for the fight.
 The best and bravest of my city were sacrificed to plug holes in our planning.
 I see around flag-waving fools who announce how proud they are and urge government to sacrifice some of our troops for feel-good jesture. In a month most of them will probably care only about the next ball game.
 I hope there are enough rational-thinking and ashamed americans around me. It's going to be a long fight. Most likely our children will inherit it.
 I hope one day we can all stand really proud - once we earn it.

 miko

 P.S. I appologise for pressing my previous post about the estate inheritance tax.
 Despite some accusations I did not use the tragedy as an opportunity to push my views on it. In fact not being personally affected by estate tax I did not pay much attention to it other then general support of republican point of view. So I never made any previous posts to that effect.
 The matter just occured to me and being pushed a little out of balance by recent events - mostly inability to do much about them - I felt a need to lash out at something I could affect.
 I am sure my view is right but after seing many people take it as bad timing, I should have shut up right away instead of pressing it. I guess I failed to impress upon people that it is not financial but moral issus. Most likely people were not able to read it carefully in veiew of the tragedy. My confusingly-sarcastic choise of title did not help either...
 I will bring that tax matter to your attention in a few weeks/month when the timing is less controversial.

[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]

Offline 1776

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My 2 cents (and appology)
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2001, 08:27:00 PM »
Apologize? For what? Your thoughts? Penning them to electrons? I don't understand are there some subjects not allowed on these BBS?

I hardly think there is a list of subjects not to be discussed or is there?  

To me an apology isn't needed and I assume that you do not want to offend my sensibilities?   Therefore, you should apologize for making an apology!!

BTW, your excellent take of the death tax really makes the point intellectually.

Offline john9001

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My 2 cents (and appology)
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2001, 11:26:00 PM »
""formidable fighters""
yeah , heard that before, nazi super men, undefeatable japanese, battle hardened iraq rupublican guard. vietnam ?, the NVA & VC lost 1 million men to 50,000 for the US, the enemy never learns, they think america  is fat and lazy and will never fight, once again we have rallyed to the flag and the enemy will pay in blood.

yeah ,the taliban have been fighting a 10 yr civil war with the afgan govt and they can't defeat it, now they will have to fight NATO

afgan govt army from the north , nato from the south, iran closed their border with afgan, no  resupply, taliban & bin laden have no where to run , no where to hide

the monkey has pulled the tigers tail , now the tiger will eat the monkey

[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: john9001 ]

Offline capt. apathy

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My 2 cents (and appology)
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2001, 01:57:00 AM »
miko2d,
  I absolutely agree with you about the IRA, if we are going to hunt down and deal with the people who give support (financial or otherwise) to those involved in Tuesdays attacks (and we definitely should).  We must step up to the plate and deal with Americans who send support to terrorist organizations.

  I also think Ben Laden is a screaming example as to why we need to make sure that our gov't never again trains people to be gorilla fighters (reads as terrorist) no matter who we intend to point them at.

Offline Jammer

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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2001, 03:23:00 AM »
"So it has come to this. The entire modern history of the Middle East--the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the Balfour declaration, Lawrence of Arabia's lies, the Arab revolt, the foundation of the state of Israel, four Arab-Israeli wars and the thirty-four years of Israel's brutal occupation of Arab land--all erased within hours as those who claim to represent a crushed, humiliated population struck back with the wickedness and awesome cruelty of a doomed people. Is it fair--is it moral--to write this so soon, without proof, when the last act of barbarism, in Oklahoma, turned out to be the work of home-grown Americans? I fear it is. America is at war and, unless I am mistaken, many thousands more are now scheduled to die in the Middle East, perhaps in America too. Some of us warned of "the explosion to come.'' But we never dreamt this nightmare.

Andd yes, Osama bin Laden comes to mind--his money, his theology, his frightening dedication to destroying American power. I have sat in front of bin Laden as he described how his men helped to destroy the Russian Army in Afghanistan and thus the Soviet Union [see Fisk, September 21, 1998]. Their boundless confidence allowed them to declare war on America. But this is not really the war of democracy versus terror that the world will be asked to believe in the coming days. It is also about US missiles smashing into Palestinian homes and US helicopters firing missiles into a Lebanese ambulance in 1996 and American shells crashing into a village called Qana and about a Lebanese militia--paid and uniformed by America's Israeli ally--hacking and raping and murdering their way through refugee camps.

No, there is no doubting the utter, indescribable evil of what has happened in the United States. That Palestinians could celebrate the massacre of thousands of innocent people is not only a symbol of their despair but of their political immaturity, of their failure to grasp what they had always been accusing their Israeli enemies of doing: acting disproportionately. All the years of rhetoric, all the promises to strike at the heart of America, to cut off the head of "the American snake'' we took for empty threats. How could a backward, conservative, undemocratic and corrupt group of regimes and small, violent organizations fulfill such preposterous promises? Now we know.

And in the hours that followed the September 11 annihilation, I began to remember those other extraordinary assaults upon the United States and its allies, miniature now by comparison with yesterday's casualties. Did not the suicide bombers who killed 239 American servicemen and 58 French paratroopers in Beirut on October 23, 1983, time their attacks with unthinkable precision?

There were just seven seconds between the Marine bombing and the destruction of the French three miles away. Then there were the attacks on US bases in Saudi Arabia, and last year's attempt--almost successful, it turned out--to sink the USS Cole in Aden. And then how easy was our failure to recognize the new weapon of the Middle East, which neither Americans nor any other Westerners could equal: the despair-driven, desperate suicide bomber.

And there will be, inevitably, and quite immorally, an attempt to obscure the historical wrongs and the injustices that lie behind the firestorms. We will be told about "mindless terrorism,'' the "mindless" bit being essential if we are not to realize how hated America has become in the land of the birth of three great religions.

Ask an Arab how he responds to the thousands of innocent deaths, and he or she will respond as decent people should, that it is an unspeakable crime. But they will ask why we did not use such words about the sanctions that have destroyed the lives of perhaps half a million children in Iraq, why we did not rage about the 17,500 civilians killed in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon. And those basic reasons why the Middle East caught fire last September--the Israeli occupation of Arab land, the dispossession of Palestinians, the bombardments and state-sponsored executions--all these must be obscured lest they provide the smallest fractional reason for the mass savagery on September 11.

No, Israel was not to blame--though we can be sure that Saddam Hussein and the other grotesque dictators will claim so--but the malign influence of history and our share in its burden must surely stand in the dark with the suicide bombers. Our broken promises, perhaps even our destruction of the Ottoman Empire, led inevitably to this tragedy. America has bankrolled Israel's wars for so many years that it believed this would be cost-free. No longer so. But, of course, the United States will want to strike back against "world terror.'' Indeed, who could ever point the finger at Americans now for using that pejorative and sometimes racist word "terrorism''?

Eight years ago, I helped make a television series that tried to explain why so many Muslims had come to hate the West. Now I remember some of those Muslims in that film, their families burnt by American-made bombs and weapons. They talked about how no one would help them but God. Theology versus technology, the suicide bomber against the nuclear power. Now we have learned what this means."

Offline eskimo2

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My 2 cents (and appology)
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2001, 03:41:00 AM »
We do need to be very cautious about beginning a land war in Afghanistan... Very cautious.
Air strikes can begin soon and without unreasonable risk.  We can cut off supplies and send them back to the stone age (they aren't that far from it now).  
But I hope that we do not begin a land war until NATO thinks that it is winnable.
Doing nothing is not an option.  If they get a hold of Anthrax or a nuke, they will use it.  It is more dangerous to do nothing.

Whatever happens I fear will last much longer, and be much more grim than most citizens realize...

 :(

eskimo.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2001, 05:09:00 AM »
Quote
I guess our best ally is and always been Britain. Do you know that most of the financing the IRA was receiving came from US?
How many people are in jail for sending money to IRA? Shouldn't we start really imposing the laws protecting our friends before we go to them for help?

And until 6 months ago you were allowing terrorists from the 'Real IRA' free, unrestricted passage in and out of the US.

You will recall that this splinter group was responsible forthe Omagh bombing 3 years ago (killed 30+), so its not as though they have just appeared.

I'd like to know exactly why it has taken so long. Irish-American votes?

On your other points, I broadly agree. But I find it sickening to think that it was the US who fuelled the Taliban and the other fundamentalist Islamic organisations as a tool against the Russians. You gave them money, trained them and equipped them and effectively gave them a mandate to rule in a country which hates them. And now it seems many Americans would happily see their forces bomb that same country.

It's a bungle of epic proportions, from beginning to end. Let's hope that it will be avoided in future, because the terrorist attacks can only get worse from here on in.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline 1776

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« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2001, 07:45:00 AM »
Jammer, do you think the arab world will unite in this war with the West?  Do you think that the current unity of America can last in a long war?  Would you enlist?  Or do you feel we should take our losses and retire?

Offline Naso

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My 2 cents (and appology)
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2001, 08:19:00 AM »
Jammer, good post, made me thinking a lot.

1776, better you go back play Quake, RL is much different from your games.

Offline 1776

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« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2001, 08:27:00 AM »
Naso, what is that in your mouth?

Offline Tuomio

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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2001, 09:41:00 AM »
Excellent posting, this terrorist thing has gone unopposed for tens of years. Now it just got a visible form, hopefully not to disappear again. I hope its not too late to do something about it.

Its harder to enter in US if you smoke pot, than if youre wearing a TNT belt.

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2001, 10:14:00 AM »
Dowding,
 I've asked myself the same question about our policy on the IRA and their supporters for quite a few years now. I’m not having much luck making sense of it either.
 One thing I would guess is the large amount of people (I was very surprised to find so many people I talked to felt this way) who look on the IRA as patriots in a struggle that parallels our revolution 200 years ago.
 The sad fact is that before Tom Clancy wrote about it, most of the people I heard talking about it thought that there was a united Ireland trying to throw out British rule. Actually I used to think the same thing myself 15 or 20 years ago (stupid teen years, everything seemed so clear then).
 Anyway that’s my best guess so far.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2001, 12:19:00 PM »
Capt. Apathy, I appreciate your insight.

But the parallels between the American Revolution and the N.I. situation are tenuous at best. For one, a large proportion of the Northern Irish population want to remain as part of the United Kingdom - i.e. the loyalists. They more proud to be British than most English, Welsh or Scottish.

So having two populations, both wanting different things for the country they live in is complicated enough. Add to that a very sensitive protestant/catholic situation, and you can see why NI is the mess it is.

But I'm sure you know this already.

I'd like to see all our countries review their approach to terrorism, and particularly people/groups who support it.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2001, 01:00:00 PM »
Well, I don't know much about support for IRA, but what amazes me is that American government official regulary meet so-called representatives of Chechen "government", and in many ways ideologicaly and AFAIK even financialy support terrorists. The military operation of Russian army in Chechnya, that started after the Chechen invasion in Dagestan and violent terrorist acts in Moscow, Buinaksk and Volgodonsk, is shown as a "fight against human rights" and terrorists are described as "freedom fighters".

Also look at the strange politics of supporting Moslim terrorists in Balkans, all that unprovoked agression against Yugoslavia, current circus called "Cannabis Harvest"... How can all this facts stand together with fighting terrorism?!

Isn't it time to rethink it?... It's hard to admit that Russians, Serbs, Macedonians, Israelians and other people fight the same enemy that hit you. But if we want to survive - we have to help each other.