Biker bar

[easymo]

I hit a couple of biker bars today.(My version of Sunday go to meeting.)  I heard a lot of chest thumpin, and saber rattling.  This came mostly from guys my age, who's amazinhunks would pucker at the thought of saddling up a 60 lb. field pack, and basic load of ammo.  I was not impressed.

  During the '68 Tet offensive we lost six thousand four hundred men.  These boys weren't  in a big building trying to get rich (not that there is anything wrong with that).  They were in the service of their country, making about 200 bucks a month.  They told us, after it was over, that back home a few people had burned the American flag.  That was about all the flag waving that went on at the time.

  My point is that the anti war generation is at the age where they are running things right now.  My generation is a weak kneed bunch at best.  If the terrorist hit us hard, they will probably fold.  If you young fellas happen to be in the field at the time You will be on your own.  Don't lose heart.  A man decides on his own sense of honor and that is all you have to live up to. As long as you do that, they cant hurt you, even if they kill you.

  The good news is that my generation is quickly reaching the age when we will be dead, or drooling on ourselves before long.  Either way we will be out of the way.  They say that characteristics skip a generation. And  I am counting heavily on the possibility that the young men who may have to fight this latest threat are the same caliber as their Grandfathers.

  If by some chance you do get a shot at these noodlesuckers in the middle east.  Do an old trooper  a favor. Show them how the U.S. Army brings the pain.

[ispar]

Originally posted by easymo:
I hit a couple of biker bars today.(My version of Sunday go to meeting.)  I heard a lot of chest thumpin, and saber rattling.  This came mostly from guys my age, who's amazinhunks would pucker at the thought of saddling up a 60 lb. field pack, and basic load of ammo.  I was not impressed.

  During the '68 Tet offensive we lost six thousand four hundred men.  These boys weren't  in a big building trying to get rich (not that there is anything wrong with that).  They were in the service of their country, making about 200 bucks a month.  They told us, after it was over, that back home a few people had burned the American flag.  That was about all the flag waving that went on at the time.

  My point is that the anti war generation is at the age where they are running things right now.  My generation is a weak kneed bunch at best.  If the terrorist hit us hard, they will probably fold.  If you young fellas happen to be in the field at the time You will be on your own.  Don't lose heart.  A man decides on his own sense of honor and that is all you have to live up to. As long as you do that, they cant hurt you, even if they kill you.

  The good news is that my generation is quickly reaching the age when we will be dead, or drooling on ourselves before long.  Either way we will be out of the way.  They say that characteristics skip a generation. And  I am counting heavily on the possibility that the young men who may have to fight this latest threat are the same caliber as their Grandfathers.

  If by some chance you do get a shot at these noodlesuckers in the middle east.  Do an old trooper  a favor. Show them how the U.S. Army brings the pain.

Don't be silly enough to equate anti-Vietnam War sentiment with anti-war sentiment in general. And do not think that those that oppose war do so out of fear. Most have damn good and very legitimate reasons for it. And I believe that the people you so casually wave off as cowards will stand their ground as hard as anyone else.

This is a different situation from Vietnam. This is OUR business. Not that of some other country. Unfortunately, it appears that conflict is necessary, now that the US has called this an act of war. Too bad. Because the only way to deal with this long term is to deal with it as a crime. War begets more war. Which is one of those damn good, legitimate reasons.

[ 09-16-2001: Message edited by: ispar ]

[Tuomio]

Where are you going to attack?

Go fast and furious to afghanistan, lose 50,000 american soldiers and flee? That will happen if you dont make your objectives clear and know how to destroy 50,000 guerillas in maybe worlds difficultiest attack evinroments. That terrain is ambushers paradise. Theres no hard targets to hit, no logistics or tanks, just guerillas covered in rabbit holes and endless canyons. Only way is unmechanized ground troops with helicopter support, both are fat targets in there. Ground logistics would be in very high danger.

But sure, i dont have anything against US army invading Afghanistan, people should just be informed that it will be hard task. Just dont start wwiii, thats all im asking, keep the nukes out.  

[easymo]

"Theres no hard targets to hit, no logistics or tanks, just guerillas covered in rabbit holes and endless canyons"  Im glad to see our friends in finland have a good sense of humor.

  "And I believe that the people you so casually wave off as cowards will stand their ground as hard as anyone else."  Only if the ground they stand is in Canada. And they can stay there till the war is over.

[ 09-16-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]

[john9001]

the afgan anti-taliban army in the north said they have 30,000 troops to send in to help the americans if NATO attacks the taliban, remember they know the land , know the tactics, and hate the taliban and will be resupplyed by NATO, wile taliban have no resupply

[ispar]

Originally posted by easymo:
"Theres no hard targets to hit, no logistics or tanks, just guerillas covered in rabbit holes and endless canyons"  Im glad to see our friends in finland have a good sense of humor.

  "And I believe that the people you so casually wave off as cowards will stand their ground as hard as anyone else."  Only if the ground they stand is in Canada. And they can stay there till the war is over.

[ 09-16-2001: Message edited by: easymo ]

Don't be so quick to judge... the proof is in the pudding. Wait till you've tasted it.

[Cabby44]

Easymo, don't be so sure about the generations following the Boomers.

Watched the  MSNBC "Town Meeting" Sunday night.
Can you say "Blame America"??

I have never heard so much ignorance and stupidity spewed from the mouths of so many Americans since i watched Jerry Springer once a few years back.

The "pool" of American citizens the MSNBC production crew drew from must have been limited to people with I.Q.'s that matched their ages. What an indictment of the American Educational system. Or perhaps a testament to the success of the Leftist-Liberal hippy-dippy brainwashing of the last couple of generations. Or maybe MSNBC just packed the "audience" with space-case Liberal-weenies with no back-bones, i don't know.

My God, if most Americans think like this group of morons i am afraid for our troops, and our future as a nation.

I hope these Americans are in the minoritiy.  From what i have seen,  our military personnel are of a much higher quality than these creeps on the MSNBC show.  But that will mean little if the  majority of Americans are like the twits on this TV show.

Truly frightening.

Cabby

[john9001]

i think they prescreen the people to get the results they want, i think they do the same thing with the "man in the street" interviews, i always wonder how many they talked to and didn't show because they didn't like the answers

[Dune]

The problem has never been just Afganistan, the Taliban or bin Laden.  He's just the first one to get the balls enough to hit directly at the US.

And if we shot him in the melon tomorrow there'd be 20 more to take his place.

Targets?  There are training bases all over the world.  Sudan, Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afganistan, etc.  These are what must be destroyed.  And continually sought out and destroyed.  Without the training and indoctrination they recieve at these bases, the world will be much safer.

[Karnak]

Cabby44,

 

Or maybe MSNBC just packed the "audience" with space-case Liberal-weenies with no back-bones, i don't know.

Watch who you slander.

I'm a Liberal, but I sure as hell ain't going to roll over and play dead. Very few Liberals will roll over and a like number of Conservatives will want to close ourselves off from the world and hope it goes away.

We need to get those bastards.

Here is what I think needs to be done:

 

Originally posted by Karnak (me):
I think that we need to form a global group from as many nations as possible, USA, Russia, Egypt, Israel, Palistinian Authority, UK, India, France, Mexico, Pakistan, Germany, Iran, Brazil, Japan, Canada, China, Spain, ect, ect and go after every terrorist group that raises its head and ruthlessly kill it.
Start with Osama bin Laden and his cronies. Then on to others. The PIRA blows something up? They're gone. Period. Hamas runs a suicide bomb at a restraunt we go and eliminate them. Basque seppartists kill another judge? They join the list of extinct terrorist organizations. The same rules across the world, you commit terrorist acts, you die.

Will we have to go in on the ground? Yes. Will we take casulties? Yes. Do we have the stomach for it? Do we want to win? I pray the answer is yes.

The greater the diversity of nations that we can get on this the greater the chances of it suceeding.

We will also have to listen to peoples that feel themselves oppressed and do what we can to eliminated that feeling. Only when those who commit such acts face universal elimination and we as a world move to eliminate the feelimgs of oppression as much as we can will we purge the world of terrorism.

I hope we can do this.

[Ddriag]

The PIRA blows something up? They're gone. Period  

Oh yes! It's really that easy. C'mon. Grow up. The best way to get your arse kicked is to underestimate the magnitude of the challenge.

[Cabby44]

Quote:

"The best way to get your arse kicked is to underestimate the magnitude of the challenge."

Or shrink from it......

Cabby

[Karnak]

Ddriag,

I'm not insinuating that it is easy, I'm saying that it has to be done.

How hard it is, is irrelevant.

And yes, I know how hard it could be.

[ispar]

Originally spewed by Cabby44:
Easymo, don't be so sure about the generations following the Boomers.

Watched the  MSNBC "Town Meeting" Sunday night.
Can you say "Blame America"??

I have never heard so much ignorance and stupidity spewed from the mouths of so many Americans since i watched Jerry Springer once a few years back.

The "pool" of American citizens the MSNBC production crew drew from must have been limited to people with I.Q.'s that matched their ages. What an indictment of the American Educational system. Or perhaps a testament to the success of the Leftist-Liberal hippy-dippy brainwashing of the last couple of generations. Or maybe MSNBC just packed the "audience" with space-case Liberal-weenies with no back-bones, i don't know.

My God, if most Americans think like this group of morons i am afraid for our troops, and our future as a nation.

I hope these Americans are in the minoritiy.  From what i have seen,  our military personnel are of a much higher quality than these creeps on the MSNBC show.  But that will mean little if the  majority of Americans are like the twits on this TV show.

Truly frightening.

Cabby

Ah, the rabidly right-wing ignorance and stupidity we have come to know and love from cabby. Strange that you find that frightening... I find it relieving (since I know what you mean by the rhetoric you spewed above) that people are aware of what is happening here.

It's funny. I thought it was LIBERALS who said "you can do whatever you believe in." Yet you are subscribing to this? Strange... I would think it goes against your very nature. After all... it's, well, it's not back-to-the-wall conservative!  

This country is rushing itself into a potentially disastrous military action, and virtually no one can see past the red haze that's clouding their vision. "Vengeance!" "Get the bastards!" I keep hearing this... are you too stupid to realize that this is EXACTLY WHAT WAS USED TO JUSTIFY THESE ATTACKS!?

Justice must be delivered - but justice is a dangerous and deceptive word. It can be too easily used as a facade for evil. OUR evil too. A civilized nation and people attempt to mete out justice fairly, in a way that gives the accused a chance at defense and does not endanger the innocent while dealing with the guilty. Is immediately declaring the WTC attacks an act of war and moving into a war the just way to deal with this?

I say no. Perhaps those guilty will be punished, so will the not guilty. This is the wrong path. The only way to deal with terrorism in the future will be to define it as a crime and deal with it justly.

THIS is my reason for opposing the direction we are taking. I won't go into my reason for this stated position, nor what else must be done... but military action will in the long, perhaps even the short run be a waste of lives and money for little return.

When our boys go into Afghanistan, I will be praying as much as anyone for their success and survival. I hope as much as anyone else that they can help bring the responsible parties to justice.

But there is a better way.

[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: ispar ]

[john9001]

ispar...there is another way, you go to afgan and have tea with bin laden and tell him all about your liberal values and how much you hate the great satan, maybe he will be more 'reasonable"