Author Topic: No wonder US companies are going under (Read 1080 times)

midnight Target · « **Reply #30 on:** July 21, 2005, 08:01:53 AM »

I'm a QA professional and you are all correct.

JIT, TQM, Kan Ban, 5S, 6 Sigma, Baldridge... the list goes on and on..... and none of it is a majic solution. I have seen them work, and I have seen them fail. It all depends on the situation, the support from the top, and the resolve of the workforce.

I would place our current product next to any competitor on the market today. Not because I'm such a great Quality Guru... but because we got a new President who insists upon it. Suddenly arguments over "good enough" went away. Decisions to ship and bank instead of hold and repair stopped cold.

The examples stated here of idiotic JIT decisions and silly 5S garbage runs are just that.... silly and idiotic. Anyone who would allow perfectly good parts to be thrown away is criminally stupid, and has no clue how 5S should be accomplished.

lazs2 · « **Reply #31 on:** July 21, 2005, 08:09:12 AM »

I bet the 20 something accountant in the story never cut up a wrench and welded it all back up in a way to fit a certain part that you couldn't easily get to any other way.

midnights example is really strange tho because everyone knows that a fastener/bolt with a a 9/16 head, if it has a nut on the other side, has a 9/16 nut that you have to hold with another wrench.

lazs

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #32 on:** July 21, 2005, 08:16:24 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by midnight Target
I'm a QA professional and you are all correct.

JIT, TQM, Kan Ban, 5S, 6 Sigma, Baldridge... the list goes on and on..... and none of it is a majic solution. I have seen them work, and I have seen them fail. It all depends on the situation, the support from the top, and the resolve of the workforce.

I would place our current product next to any competitor on the market today. Not because I'm such a great Quality Guru... but because we got a new President who insists upon it. Suddenly arguments over "good enough" went away. Decisions to ship and bank instead of hold and repair stopped cold.

The examples stated here of idiotic JIT decisions and silly 5S garbage runs are just that.... silly and idiotic. Anyone who would allow perfectly good parts to be thrown away is criminally stupid, and has no clue how 5S should be accomplished.

The problem is not that the ideas don't work. The problem is exactly what you describe. The quest for the "magic bullet" that solves all the problems.

They want to put the system in place and expect results. But without understanding and accepting the principles BEHIND the system.

ISO/QS is a perfect example. I went to 40 hours of classes on ISO/QS for a company. They were going to get certified because a customer requested it. The thing was, they DESPERATELY needed to embrace the principles BEHIND the ISO/QS system, in order to solve the problems they had. They were looking for a piece of paper to hang on the wall to impress a customer. And they don't understand WHY they can't get ISO/QS certified. It's a matter of adopting the PRINCIPLES that are the FOUNDATION of ISO/QS.

The guy who picked me to be on the ISO/QS team was the QA manager. The same guy promoted a woman from operator to qc inspector. She'd been written up 7 TIMES for failing to properly execute a "first piece last piece" inspection report because she was too lazy to walk 100 feet to get a template required for inspection. So they gave her three departments to cover to inspect parts.

QS/ISO, six sigma, and other programs are great, but only if you grasp the principles behind them, and use common sense to actually apply the principles, instead of "putting on a show".

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #33 on:** July 21, 2005, 08:27:40 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
I bet the 20 something accountant in the story never cut up a wrench and welded it all back up in a way to fit a certain part that you couldn't easily get to any other way.

midnights example is really strange tho because everyone knows that a fastener/bolt with a a 9/16 head, if it has a nut on the other side, has a 9/16 nut that you have to hold with another wrench.

lazs

That's not a strange example at all. It is a common example. All TOO common. It all goes back to expecting a "system" (be it six sigma or ISO/QS) to work without grasping the principles behind it or putting it in place with common sense. They dod not understand the system, they only know it is supposed to solve their problems. So they put it in place and make it absolutely rigid and inflexible, because they don't understand it well enough to actually apply it in the real world. Then the laws of unintended consequences take over. Worse still, they can't REALLY make the system work, so they blame the system, or they blame somoeone else.

Sure, everyone in the REAL world knows that most 1/4" fasteners use a 7/16" bolt head and a 7/16" nut. And 5/16" fasteners use 1/2' bolt heads and nuts. And 3/8" fasteners use 9/16" bolt heads and nuts. But when viewed from the office after reading books on the system, two 9/16 wrenches seem to represent unnecessary duplication. Again, this is where the system is put in place without understanding it and using common sense.

The newer versions of ISO/QS TRY to take into account that people who try to put the system in place don't understand it, by actually providing for common sense adaptation and giving examples. Unfortunately, it often doesn't help.

cpxxx · « **Reply #34 on:** July 21, 2005, 09:27:13 AM »

My division introduced 'Lean Manufacturing' a couple of years ago with much fanfare and even an award or two to the parties involved. Pity it didn't work, my plant is closing down and I just finished my last full shift.

The idea is good, excellent even. Toyota came up with the idea and it did well for them but it didn't work for us despite warnings from the production people. The problem with all good ideas like this is not that they don't work but that their execution often falls into the hands of people who are either barely competent or simply lack the experience to implement it. Meanwhile the people who know it's not working are either ignored or accused of being obstructive.

Throughputs did improve, from my experience mainly because the layout of the equipment improved. But the biggest problem was that changes would only work when everyone was fully cross trained and when everyone turned up for work that day. On top of that far too many operators were short term contractors partially trained. Who quite frankly could care less. Most of the full time staff were disaffected as well. Mainly because we were sick of being preached to by people who were demonstrably barely competent and by managers who were more worried about covered their rear end than actually doing their job.

I completely agree with Virgil's last post because it fits my experience.

Examples: We had an oven for curing product. It wasn't in use 100% of the time but was vital. Someone decided it could be dispensed with. It was removed from the books in some accountancy process but not from the floor. But we couldn't touch it. It sat there in perfect condition. Meanwhile the orders were missed and product built up waiting. We thought it was hilarious.

Similarly other machines and equipment were taken off the books in the same accountancy exercise. It was obvious to everyone in production that we would need them again soon. We were ignored. Eventually senior management actually acknowledged we were right. More lost orders.

We needed a kind of tape. Normally when stores would order more from the manufacturer when stock reached a certain level. This was stopped by some genius in accounts who didn't realise that the manufacturer had a lead time of at least a month. Partly because we were using a type of machine which was obsolete. Even more lost orders as the machine sat idle for a whole month. More hilarity on our part.

All these ideas are good, Lean, sixsigma etc. They do work but you need competent people to execute them and you need to listen to the people who actually do the work.

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #35 on:** July 21, 2005, 09:45:31 AM »

Condolences on losing your job. Good luck finding a new one. Hope you move up, instead of just on.

Dowding · « **Reply #36 on:** July 21, 2005, 10:10:02 AM »

Bad management decisions, cpxxx. Pure and simple.

Siaf__csf · « **Reply #37 on:** July 21, 2005, 10:42:48 AM »

The point is that every company needs a good accountant. But a company does not need an accountant to run the company - the management must have 100% understanding of the scope of activity and the requirements of field work in order to succeed.

The management can and will be supported by accountants, but the managers need to merge the accounting and field work together to provide a mix which will result in a successful company.

Dowding · « **Reply #38 on:** July 21, 2005, 10:59:55 AM »

That's why I'm training to be a Management Accountant.

Thrawn · « **Reply #39 on:** July 21, 2005, 11:18:03 AM »

Virgil, your first post is so full of jargo it makes it almost unreadable.

Krusher · « **Reply #40 on:** July 21, 2005, 11:36:31 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by cpxxx
My division introduced 'Lean Manufacturing' a couple of years ago with much fanfare and even an award or two to the parties involved. Pity it didn't work, my plant is closing down and I just finished my last full shift.

Best of luck to you CPxxx. I am sure you will bounce back quickly.

My company will be losing 14,500 fine employees in the very near future. I made it past the first round (15,000) now I get to play wait and see for the next round.

Sandman · « **Reply #41 on:** July 21, 2005, 11:41:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Midnight
Source is first hand experience.. unfortunately

Methinks your company doesn't understand Six Sigma.

Rolex · « **Reply #42 on:** July 21, 2005, 12:01:14 PM »

The fact remains that generalizing that all university graduates, managers, engineers and accountants are losers (or even that American companies are failing - the topic title) is undefendable hyperbole.

American companies are doing well in spite of the statistically stable number that have failed and will fail from incompetence or mismanagement. Productivity is pretty darn good.

Captain, it's a shame that you were surrounded by idiot engineers and accountants at eight companies over 25 years. That's just an amazing string of bad luck.

Samiam · « **Reply #43 on:** July 21, 2005, 01:37:56 PM »

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1. If the tool box had more than one of a particular size wrench (i.e. two 9/16" combo wrenches) then one had to be thrown away in the trash. No employee could take it, it had to go in the trash.

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Do you live in a totalitarian country?! If ANY "manager", "boss" or any other idiot comes to inspect our "server room" that is in fact a storage facility for ages-old PC hardware, and asks me to whoopee throw something away - I'll probably kick him out

My thoughts exactly. This doesn't sound like any American company I've ever experienced. The typical technicians response to an idiodic edict like having to throw stuff out that he knows he'll need is to simply ignore it. If someone comes checking, lie and/or hide evidence.

That's the American way! It's what differentiated the US soldier in WWII from the germans.

J_A_B · « **Reply #44 on:** July 21, 2005, 01:54:15 PM »

These funky business words and practices sound a lot like communism. When it fails it is inevitably because "it wasn't done right"...not because the system just sucks.

J_A_B