How to turn very well????? In a 38L

[SAS_KID]

I need to know what is the best speed to do a nice tight turn with flaps and stuff.
But, this is what I do after the merge and get on the dudes 6.
I usually put my dive flaps down to make sure I don't go to fast and completely overshoot and go off somewhere else then when I get to about 200mph I put my flaps down about 2 notches when the enemy does manuvers so I can stay with them but then when we are goin about 150 to 100 mph if I havn't shot him or her down yet or I havn't lost them or been shot down yet they seen to turn way tighter than me and I can't a good shot in and I usually cut my throttle all the way and try to turn with them but I always stall before I can do the turn...
I know im doing it all wrong but can yall help on the proper way to do this.

Also im usually going after a 109 190 or a LA-7 I just stay away from Spits,Hurri's,Zero's,and F6's just in case its Greebo unless I have a teamate.
(I hope I spelt his name right)

[Max]

Are you doing flat turns?

DmdMax

[fuzeman]

Are you turning horizontal, vertical or somewhere in between? A Lightning expert overrides anything I say but...
You should probably not be using dive flaps like that especially if your using combat trim. CT doesn't react to dive flaps or flaps, maybe that's not the best way to say that. Not to mention your just dumping E that might be needed soon.
Real slow with all but 1 notch of flaps the 38 can maneuver nicely in the vertical with that last notch of flaps to get over the top of a loop, as long as you don't build up too much speed.
They also say manual trim benefits the 38 so you can wring just that little more performance out of it.

OK you 38 gurus, I got at least half that right or close?

[SAS_KID]

ok fuz and since i like to fly low i usually fly low to the ground (less than 1k alt) so I guess we would be doing flat turns and sorta high yoyo turns or every now and then if the guy if the enemy is a noob they would try to do a loop or somethin and usually I would get them at 200mph but at at 100-150 even with WEP on I can't get them

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by fuze

They also say manual trim benefits the 38 so you can wring just that little more performance out of it.
 

I have found that Manual Trim works better for most all US planes verses using CT ( combat Trim ).  not purely accurate but  when I want a quick trim before engaging I myself will nose low and hit Combat Trim wings level I watch for the RED Bar in the Elevator Trim tab to hit about near the bottom of the L in the
E
L
V
where it is printed on the trim tab gauge then turn off Combat Trim ( CT )( hit Ctrl X to switch it on and off ),  this will usually let me wring more performance out of my plane

but as anyone knows, different strokes for different folks.

also I would think turning the 38 nose low and with usage of rudder and  1 to 2 notches of flaps will be more appropriate.  use the vertical in the 38 and ask AkAk, Murdr, ManeTMP, etc, etc, etc for them secret super duper hong kong phooy tips in the 38!

[Murdr]

Dive recovery flaps add very little drag.  Their function is to help you recover from a dive with a little extra positive air pressure under the fore of the wing.  My point being, they do very little to keep your speed down.

Fuze and TC are correct on the manual trim.  For one thing CT will actually hamper your dive recovery (as it trims nose down while you are trying to pull up).  At slow speed with flaps deployed, the elevators trim hard nose up with CT on, and limits your avalible stick input.  More here.

As far as flap usage...I use the full range of flap settings, but never any longer than I have to. I may adjust my flaps 2-4 times in one slow speed loop.  I never want more flap than I need to gain/hold position.

You should not be cutting your throttle in a turn unless you are much faster than them, and concerned about overshooting.  Doing so at flap speeds will rob you of much needed E and hamper your rate of turn.  While you may turn a tighter radius slowing down with the throttle, you lose out because your rate of turn suffers.  (eg. If you would have turned 360 in 14 seconds at full power, but only turned 250deg in 14 seconds at idle, you just lost alot of position no matter how much tigher your radius was)

Also, as mentioned use the vertical in manuevers as much as the situation allows.  There are planes that a P-38 will lose ground to in sustained flat turns, but will hang with, or even out turn if you avoid sustained flat turns.

[Shane]

i would like to point out that nothing helps handle a 38 better than having rudder pedals.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Shane
i would like to point out that nothing helps handle a 38 better than having rudder pedals.

That too

[Ack-Ack]

First of all, take off Combat Trim.  There is no real tangible gain for using it and in certain situations hinder you.  Combat trim doesn't take in effect such things as flaps and will trim to compensate for the lift provided.   Combat trim also renders the dive flaps useless.

More info on the Combat Trim can be found here.

2nd...those aren't dive brakes on the P-38L.   Those are dive flaps and the intended use to aid in pulling out of high speed dives.  It will not act like a dive brake.  It can however be used as high speed combat flap to aid in turning at high speeds.  Basically useless below 275mph IAS.

Don't be afraid to go full flaps when the situation calls for it.  And use the strengths of the P-38.  It's the one of the best in the vertical and turns excellent in nose down turns.  Also learn to use your rudders as they will greatly aid your turning capabilities.  And throttle control, you need to be as familiar with using your throttle as you are with your flaps.


Check out the 479th Film Library for P-38 films that will help you.

479th Film Library


ack-ack

[Max]

Originally posted by SAS_KID
 at 100-150 even with WEP on I can't get them

I'm not a 38 driver but I do remember this from the old Air Warrior Training Academy:
A slower moving plane will out turn a faster moving plane. Picture yourself in an empty Walmart lot in your car...do a 360 turn at 5 mph. Now try it at 25 mph. Which was the smaller circle?

DmdMax

[fuzeman]

"Picture yourself in an empty Walmart lot in your car...do a 360 turn at 5 mph. Now try it at 25 mph. Which was the smaller circle? " while this is true to a point it has a flip side. What if the car is barely moving? IT still has the small turn radius but will take forever to get around it.
"While you may turn a tighter radius slowing down with the throttle, you lose out because your rate of turn suffers. (eg. If you would have turned 360 in 14 seconds at full power, but only turned 250deg in 14 seconds at idle, you just lost alot of position no matter how much tigher your radius was) " and that's where this comes into play.
Each plane has that specific 'best corner velocity' for that situation and you have to find it. It varies with weight, fuel load, altitude among other things so it's tough to say speed XXX is the best.

[pellik]

Originally posted by fuze
"Picture yourself in an empty Walmart lot in your car...do a 360 turn at 5 mph. Now try it at 25 mph. Which was the smaller circle? " while this is true to a point it has a flip side. What if the car is barely moving? IT still has the small turn radius but will take forever to get around it.
"While you may turn a tighter radius slowing down with the throttle, you lose out because your rate of turn suffers. (eg. If you would have turned 360 in 14 seconds at full power, but only turned 250deg in 14 seconds at idle, you just lost alot of position no matter how much tigher your radius was) " and that's where this comes into play.
Each plane has that specific 'best corner velocity' for that situation and you have to find it. It varies with weight, fuel load, altitude among other things so it's tough to say speed XXX is the best.

The simple way to get this figured out is that if you can black out your pilot you're going too fast for your best turn. If you can't black out your pilot you're going too slow. If you can hold that line where max turn gives you tunnel vision you're turning at corner speed. Most any speed below you're corner velocity will yield the same turn radius as at corner velocity, so getting slower in that situation doesn't do much good. Personally I like to cut throttle when fast to get down to corner speed quickly, but I know enough about merges that I can use that fleeting turn advantage (literally only 3 seconds or so) to get a winning position.

With the 38 however you also need to be aware of your stall speed as well as corner speed. As fast as you may turn when holding that magic speed, your nose will rotate faster if you drop it in a stall loop. Turning well is only a small part of flying the 38 successfully, most of it has to do with controlling E states and using your supperior stalls to compensate for turning inadequacy.

[SAS_KID]

ok but which rudder controls shuld I use?
The A S D controls or the J and L controls??????

[2bighorn]

J and L are for rudder trim. A, S and D are rudder control. If you want to use rudder efficiently, do yourself a favor and get a twisty stick or pedals. Either will work much better than keyboard control.

[SAS_KID]

Ok