Author Topic: Red Baron vs Hawker (Read 1155 times)

agent 009 · « **on:** July 21, 2005, 09:26:10 PM »

Some historians have downplayed Richthofens shootdown of Hawker. Citing the wind as the major factor in his favor.

Hawker did have the better turning & more maneuverable plane, Manfred the faster. The fight lasted 30-35 minutes most reports state. Shots fired at beginning, 30 minutes of circles, then shots again fired at end.

One account states Hawker did some aerobatics that Richthofens 'less creative flying' could not match. Richthofen's report states; my opponent then did a series of silly loops.

The author of this account also metion shots whizzing past Richthofens head during this acrobatic display, ( which is sci-fi, Manfred states shots were only fired at beginning & at end ). Besides, the author wasn't there!

Last thoughts. Hawker officially had 9 victories credited to him. Some speculate he may have had as many as 30, but these were downed before British began counting shootdowns, ( it was in the earliest part of aerial fighting ).

The point being Hawker was the more experienced of the 2. Richthofen was beginning his single seat career at the time of this encounter, fall 1916, his 11th victory.

So, was the Baron the patient hunter? hung with a more maneuverable plane for 35 min. Should this battle-victory be downplayed or not?

Hawklore · « **Reply #1 on:** July 21, 2005, 09:27:11 PM »

Red Baron was killed by a French Machine Gunner on the ground..

fact.

agent 009 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 21, 2005, 09:38:57 PM »

Australian.

VOR · « **Reply #3 on:** July 21, 2005, 09:42:14 PM »

Rifleman.

Hawklore · « **Reply #4 on:** July 21, 2005, 09:43:47 PM »

Same thing..

agent 009 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2005, 09:44:11 PM »

5-600 yrds. very lucky shot. Or the best marksman in Australian army. Lucky is more likely.

Hawklore · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2005, 09:46:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by agent 009
5-600 yrds. very lucky shot. Or the best marksman in Australian army. Lucky is more likely.

Or accidental..

Scherf · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2005, 09:49:48 PM »

I like broccoli.

Hawklore · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2005, 09:51:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Scherf
I like broccoli.

With cheese..

But your breaking a rule..

Squire · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2005, 10:58:54 PM »

Australian machine-gunner(s), but thats not the topic of the thread.

Hawkers score of "destroyed" was 9. WW1 scores are often badly misunderstood or misquoted. Btw the RFC always kept records of a pilots "successes", I have never heard of anything that claimed Hawkers score was 30 because the RFC "didnt start counting".

Hawker may have been involved in 30 combats where he either shared or personally vanquished/drove off/damaged opponents.

In regards to the fight, it was a classic matchup of a faster fighter vs a slower but more manueverable one. Hawker was over enemy territory and he had to break off at some point. Either that or be forced to land and be captured.

I dont think it needs to be "downplayed?" or "uplayed". It was by all accounts a very tough fight for both of them. In Richtofen's autobiography he wrote before his death he talks about the fight and had great respect for Maj. Hawker. As for experience, Richtofen was not a novice pilot in the Fall of 1916, he flew combat types in the East before coming to fly in the West. Hawker probably had more single seat time by the time of the fight.

Richtofen pressed the attack because that was his job, he would have broken off had there been a sound reason to, but he was over friendly territory, and he was in combat with an enemy machine. I see no reason why he should break off.

*An interesting comparison, which happened 56 years later, over N. Vietnam pitted Lt. Cunnignham's missile armed supersonic USN F-4J Phantom II vs Colonel Toons gun armed subsonic but very manueverable MiG-17 Fresco.

Seagoon · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2005, 11:03:41 PM »

Give up Agent

We are much too silly to discuss this.

EDIT: Except for Squire, that is...

More importantly, was the Battle of Trafalgar indeed fought on dry land near Cudsworth as Prof. D.P. Gumby's research indicates? Was Drake too clever for the German fleet?

My brain hurts,

SEAGOON

Pooh21 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2005, 11:11:33 PM »

It was all going good for Richthofen til the beagle cherry-picked him. Not some crocodile hunting mudmonkey with a popgun.

Hangtime · « **Reply #12 on:** July 21, 2005, 11:51:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pooh21
It was all going good for Richthofen til the beagle cherry-picked him. Not some crocodile hunting mudmonkey with a popgun.

That'd get an 'A' in LaserSailors highschool history class.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2005, 12:38:22 AM »

You only insult me because you can't top me in an argument.

SuperDud · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2005, 01:06:01 AM »

Who cares, they were both good pilots who fought well:P