Author Topic: Red Baron vs Hawker (Read 1170 times)

Jackal1 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 22, 2005, 05:31:36 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pooh21
It was all going good for Richthofen til the beagle cherry-picked him.

The doghouse is a dweeb ride that would surely cause perk whines in AH.

agent 009 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2005, 04:45:55 PM »

"(As for experience, Richtofen was not a novice pilot in the Fall of 1916, he flew combat types in the East before coming to fly in the West.)"

Much of the flight time in the east was as an observer, not as pilot.

He also flew some missions on west front as 2 seat pilot, and a handfull of missions in the Fokker eindekker single seat.

So, yes he was not a novice pilot, but less experienced in single seat action that Hawker. Hawker was flying a pusher, which would have afforded some protection from the rear, but not on this occasion. He almost made his lines, but still Manfred would have pursued. Lucky shot for Manfred maybe.

Sandman · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2005, 04:51:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hawklore
Same thing..

I'm confused...

French Machine Gunner = Australian Rifleman?

agent 009 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2005, 04:56:20 PM »

"not" same thing.

Furball · « **Reply #19 on:** July 22, 2005, 08:08:08 PM »

the real shame (aviation wise) from the first world war was McCudden crashing due to engine failure and being killed. He could have been an outstanding leader in wwii.

Seagoon · « **Reply #20 on:** July 22, 2005, 08:14:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Furball
the real shame (aviation wise) from the first world war was McCudden crashing due to engine failure and being killed. He could have been an outstanding leader in wwii.

Ah but Providence cuts both ways Furball. Someone like Boelcke or Richthoffen could have survived and gone on to lead the Luftwaffe in WW2 instead of "the fat one" to use the expression of German WW2 fighter pilots.

Personally, I'm glad we were up against Goering as my German is terrible.

- SEAGOON

Furball · « **Reply #21 on:** July 22, 2005, 08:19:41 PM »

but as an actual leader i dont think McCudden was surpassed in the first world war.

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/england/mccudden1.html

storch · « **Reply #22 on:** July 23, 2005, 06:56:40 AM »

isn't french machinegunner an oxymoron? yes perk the doghouse, vivid proof of allied bias in modelling. it was in fact the basis for the P47N modelling from the HTC imagination station.

Squire · « **Reply #23 on:** July 23, 2005, 10:00:53 AM »

Not all the WW1 successes were good WW2 leaders, seemed to depend on the man and the job. A lot changed from 1918 to 1940. Nothing is for certain. Same with the Army and Navy brass. Some made the transition, and some were mediocre to outright dangerous...

agent 009 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 23, 2005, 02:47:57 PM »

Mccudden was one of a very few who flew in every year of the war. As did Berthold on the German side.

Mcudden said this of Richthofen; The leader maneuvered very well. He also counted 24 bullets in his tail courtesy of the Baron.

As for Hawker having likely more than 9 kills, part of the problem was that he flew loads of lone patrols early on, hence no witnesses. Keeping track might also not have been a high priority for him, ( speculation ). Also it was the French who started the whole ace thing, then Germans & British began to follow suit. Awards & such for accomplishements,( Yes I know, Germans never accepted 5 kills as ace status).

Anyway, back to original point. It was Richard Townsend Bickers , hope I spelled that right, who wrote Red Baron The Legend Reevaluated that stated, Richthofen won because of the wind blowing in his favor. He's a well known author, flew in coastal command during the war, but full of beans regarding the Baron. Sure the wind was a factor, but heck Hawker had 35 minutes to line up a kill shot on Richthofen or his plane, & was able to do neither. Jeez, I wonder if Richthofens flying ability had "anything" to do with it??? Nah, couldn't be. had to be the wind.

Thrawn · « **Reply #25 on:** July 23, 2005, 03:01:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by storch
isn't french machinegunner an oxymoron? yes perk the doghouse, vivid proof of allied bias in modelling. it was in fact the basis for the P47N modelling from the HTC imagination station.

When wrapper, it clocks on the magazine blender!

Furball · « **Reply #26 on:** July 23, 2005, 06:17:11 PM »

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Originally posted by agent 009

Anyway, back to original point. It was Richard Townsend Bickers , hope I spelled that right, who wrote Red Baron The Legend Reevaluated that stated, Richthofen won because of the wind blowing in his favor. He's a well known author, flew in coastal command during the war, but full of beans regarding the Baron. Sure the wind was a factor, but heck Hawker had 35 minutes to line up a kill shot on Richthofen or his plane, & was able to do neither. Jeez, I wonder if Richthofens flying ability had "anything" to do with it??? Nah, couldn't be. had to be the wind.

It was the conclusion of the fight was directly affected by the wind. During that 35 or so minutes Hawker had been blown over the German lines. the DH2 he was flying was a deathtrap, he should have long been taken off of the front or put in a better aircraft. he had to make a run for the British lines as he was out of fuel, which is when Von Richtofen shot him down.

As for Lanoe Hawker's skill, he was among the first to arm an aircraft. he was supposed to be a superlative shot, he had a deer hunting rifle mounted on the side of the aircraft, which with single shots had managed to down some german aircraft by shooting the pilot (before the fitting of machine guns) there was an almost legend among the german pilots of this moustached British pilot, who, without doing anything, could make their aircraft drop out of the sky (you couldnt hear the single rifle crack over the engines)

Arty · « **Reply #27 on:** July 23, 2005, 06:51:27 PM »

ahem.... I believe "official" credit goes to Lt. Roy Brown

So there.....

(although, in fact, I do believe the credit goes to the aussies"

As for leaders, My vote goes for the oft forgotten Raymond Collishaw. My favourite among WW1 flyers.

Squire · « **Reply #28 on:** July 23, 2005, 08:44:28 PM »

I think the DH2 was the main RFC scout at the time, but had he been in a Nieuport 11 , he still would have had the problem of being in the slower a/c to Richtofens Albatross DII.

It was an interesting battle because there is no doubt that both were very good shots and pilots, and tacticians. They knew what it was all about.

Hawker would have likely killed a lesser opponent, who made a mistake or lost his nerve.

As for Hawkers successes, its always open for conjecture, as in WW1 there were few witnesses and no gun cameras. The fact he had 9 confirmed in 1916 is actually a very solid score for those days. He could obviously fly and shoot.

agent 009 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 24, 2005, 11:39:45 PM »

Yep, most of Hawkers kills were over German side, making verification near impossible. & Yes, it was end of fight that the wind affected most. Dh2 was best machine they had at the time, a jump up from what they were flying before. Hawker deliberatley threw his into a spin to see if it could be brought out , ( recovered ), from it. Rather ballsy considering he had no parachute. He also added the 2 drums together design so pilots didn't have to reload so often.