Author Topic: Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube  (Read 4386 times)

Offline Clifra Jones

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2005, 12:06:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, I've heard of it.

I even heard that the renewal just passed the House and will go on to the Senate. It seems our elected Representatives don't see what we've lost and/or feel it is necessary.

My question to you is:

What exactly have I lost, either alone or collectively?

People tell me I've lost a lot, but I see no change in my life whatsoever. OTOH, I'm not a criminal nor am I attempting to become a criminal.

So, help me out here.... as an essentially law-abiding US citizen, what specifically have I lost?


You've lost nothing except the ability to keep your library records private. Now I ask you, just why would you want to keep your library records private? Oh yeah, you checked out the Anarchist Cookbook!

Warrantless searches? Well, if the FBI or the NYPD believes that a terrorist has a nuke in his house and they have intellegence that he plans on setting it off tonight then yeah, break the door down and check him out. If they are wrong oh well, sorry sir, here's a check for the door. The alternative is just to insane to concider.

The whiners have yet to produce one person who has had their "liberties" infinged by the patriot act. NOT ONE!

What really annoys me is that these same groups who are complaining about the Patriot Act are the same groups who were defending people like Alger Hiss and the Rosenburghs. Coincidence? I think not!

Offline Scootter

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« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2005, 12:08:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Hi Toad,

The federal government can now perform warrantless searches, or receive warrants without judicial oversight.  Your home/business can now be searched without you ever knowing about it, your phone can be tapped without you being a suspect of anything, the only criteria needed is that someone who IS a suspect might have access to your phone, your library records are now open to investigation, and librarians are now under a gag order that prevents them from mentioning your records were accessed, and much much more.

Have you heard of the Patriot act?


This is just not true, please do a bit of research of the facts concerning the Patriot Act and don't just regurgitate the drivel you have been feed.

Judicial oversight is still required not only before the search but after, with the results of the search needing to be shown to the issuing justice. The probable cause requirements have been lowered and less proof is required for the issuance of warrants.

You are not interesting enough to warrant the worry that you are being investigated. If your background is such that the Feds. are looking at what books you have checked out of the library there must be smoke somewere.

Offline JimBear

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« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2005, 12:14:38 PM »
^ You folks dont have very long memories of what our nations intlligence and federal services are capable of, or just selective ones.

Offline Krusher

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« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2005, 12:19:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
(Padilla is still in custody more than 3 years after he was first arrested, still hasn't been charged with anything)


Why do we need to charge Mr. Padilia with anything at all?  He declared war on us and until that war ends he should stay put.  This is not a criminal, this is a soldier in a war.

Offline rshubert

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« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2005, 12:24:27 PM »
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Originally posted by ASTAC
Running away from cops..an automatic admission of guilt in my book.

This was handled exactly the way it should have been.


Actually, we call it "fleeing felon", and deadly force is justified.  And appropriate, in a situation such as that.  But it does put an awful burden on the police officers involved, as they are required to make snap decisions that literally are life-or-death.

Offline rshubert

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« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2005, 12:34:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I've heard this but I don't seem to have experienced it.

What liberties have I lost?

Anyway, to the cops that had to deal with this guy. Took a lot of courage. I hope it indeed turns out to be a "righteous" shooting; I'd hate to see the outrage if it turns out to be a mistake.

I wonder if this incident will give a bit more authority to the words "Stop! You're under arrest!". Probably not in the case of a guy bent on blowing himself up.


Don't get me wrong--I am on your side on this one, toad.  But yes, we have lost some civil liberties over the 9/11 incident and the Patriot Act.

That being said, I am willing to give up some of those civil liberties and privacy to help in the war.  It's just like when I joined the Navy lo these many years ago...I gave up civil liberties in order to be subjected to military discipline as is necessary to be effective as a member of the military.  This war is unlike any previous war, in that the "front lines" are in my backyard, at the local Kroger, or the ball game.

In my mind, that justifies placing a limit on civil liberty, due to the need to advance the struggle.  The Patriot Act has an expiration date, and I would only worry about it if they try to extend it "indefinitely".

Offline Westy

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« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2005, 12:42:17 PM »
"The Patriot Act has an expiration date, and I would only worry about it if they try to extend it "indefinitely"."


Already in progress ....

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?c109:./temp/~c109VjvaFx

First sentence: "Extend and modify authorities needed to combat terrorism, and for other purposes.


 I'm. proud to say that every one of the Massachusetts representatives voted NO.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2005, 12:48:21 PM »
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Why do we need to charge Mr. Padilia with anything at all? He declared war on us and until that war ends he should stay put.


Because the only evidence you have of that is th government's say so. Of course, no government would ever lie about such a thing...

Quote
This is not a criminal, this is a soldier in a war.


The requirement for a trial before determing guilt in criminal law isn't to protect the criminal, it's to protect the innocent. The same should apply to "enemy combatants". After all, is an "enemy combatant" worse than a paedophile who abducts and murders children? Both belong in prison. But people are entitled to some due process before being labelled and imprisoned, whatever they are accused of.

What if they decide that you are an enemy combatant?

(Padilla was arrested in Chicago, he wasn't picked up on a battlefield in Afghanistan)

Offline Toad

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« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2005, 12:49:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rshubert
But yes, we have lost some civil liberties over the 9/11 incident and the Patriot Act.



That's what everyone tells me but it hasn't affected me in the least and I haven't noticed.

That is what I'd like to discuss though.

So, what have I lost?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Furball

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« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2005, 12:58:28 PM »
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"As the man got on the train I looked at his face. He looked from left to right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, like a cornered fox.

"He looked absolutely petrified.

"He half-tripped, was half-pushed to the floor.

"One of the police officers was holding a black automatic pistol in his left hand. They held it down to him and unloaded five shots into him. I saw it. He's dead, five shots, he's dead."

"I'm totally distraught," he added. "It was no more than five yards away from where I was sitting as I saw it with my own eyes."

Mr Whitby said the suspected bomber "looked like a Pakistani" and was wearing a baseball cap and a thick coat.

He added: "He was quite large, big built, quite a sort of chubby guy."

Teri Godly, who was also in the carriage when the suspected bomber boarded, said: "A tall Asian man with a beard and a rucksack got on after me.

"Then about eight or nine police with shotguns boarded after him and started shouting to us all 'get out, get out of the station'.

"People started screaming and we all started running quite calmly up the stairs. There were six or seven gun shots behind us. It was very surreal. No one was pushing or shoving. We were in a state of shock.

"It was only afterwards that I realised how lucky we had been."

Chris Wells, a 28-year-old company manager, said he was travelling on the Victoria Line towards Vauxhall when he left the train at Stockwell.

He saw about 20 police officers, some of them armed, rushing into the station before a man jumped over the barriers with police giving chase.

He said: "There were at least 20 officers and they were carrying big black guns.

"The next thing I saw was this guy jump over the barriers and the police officers were chasing after him and everyone was just shouting 'get out, get out'."


scratch one for the good guys!! yeee haaww!!
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2005, 12:58:43 PM »
Nashwan:

Quote
...Viet Dinh, who until May headed the Justice Department's Office of Legal Policy, said in a series of recent speeches and in an interview with The Times that he thought the government's detention of Padilla was flawed and unlikely to survive court review.

     The principal intellectual force behind the Patriot Act, the terror-fighting law enacted by Congress after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Dinh has steadfastly defended the Justice Department's anti-terrorism efforts against charges that they have led to civil-rights abuses of immigrants and others. While the Patriot Act does not speak to the issue of enemy combatants, his remarks still caught some observers by surprise.....

......Padilla was arrested at O'Hare International Airport on May 8, 2002, after arriving on a flight from Pakistan. Initially, he was taken to New York and held as a "material witness," presumably to testify against others.

     The following month, he was transferred to a military prison in South Carolina after Ashcroft announced that the government had determined that he was part of an unfolding terrorist plot to explode a radioactive dispersion device, or so-called dirty bomb.

     Padilla's lawyers subsequently filed a writ of habeas corpus saying that he was being illegally held. The Justice Department responded by saying that the detention was a proper exercise of the president's wartime powers. A decision is pending before a federal appeals court in New York.



Padilla is obviously the test case for the President's "wartime powers" in this non-standard "new" war.

It's wrong that it is taking 3 years to go through the system but I think the point is that it is going through the system.

Note that Dinh doesn't think the Justice departement's stance on Padilla will survive the court challenge. If it doesn't, the problem will be solved. If it does survive, it's probably bound for the SC, which is also correct. Nobody said the legal system was perfect or fast.

Secondly, note that Mr. Padilla is NOT a law-abiding US citizen. He's suffering under the Patriot Act because he admits to plotting with some of al-Qaeda's top leaders to kill hundreds of Americans. Padilla's Plan B was to set off a radioactive device known as a "dirty bomb" in Washington.

I have very little fear that I would suffer the same fate as Mr. Padilla simply because I don't plot with A-Q to kill other Americans.

In any event, Padilla is the test case and I have no doubt that eventually the correct solution will come through the courts.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Silat

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« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2005, 12:59:05 PM »
Do the bobbies have sidearms now?
+Silat
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2005, 12:59:49 PM »
they will have eventually.

lazs

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2005, 01:03:26 PM »
I think the tone in some of the responses to my message have been a bit puzzling.  The rights we have as citizens are not just limited to stuff we can do when everything is going fine, the purpose of our civil liberties is to protect us when things go terribly wrong.

If you are arrested, the rights we have are designed to serve as a safety governor to protect you from lynching, mob rage, etc.

The Patriot act replaces the presumption of innocence until proven guilty with something more sinister.  The police can, at their discretion, 'short-circuit' many of the checks and balances that the founding fathers and two centuries of judicial oversight have instituted into our justice system.  "But chairboy, this means that criminals can be punished faster!"  It also means that the innocent can be punished before they can show proof that will exonerate them.  Trading justice for efficiency is a losing proposition.

I believe that 95% of the Patriot act uses have been/will be legitimate.  I think the professionalism and belief in liberty that suffuse our law enforcement is above reproach, and I admire their selfless attention to duty.  The problem is with the last 5%.  There will be cases where any system is abused.  The Patriot act specifically has been invoked against the homeless, for example.  Were they terrorists?  No.  Were they accused of being terrorists?  No.  Did the Patriot act give some city officials the power to do what the constitution prohibited for their own gain?  Yes, and that's what happened.  This is just one of many apparent abuses that concern me.

Some References:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/30/patriot.act.homeless.ap/
http://www.eastoregonian.info/Main.asp?SectionID=13&SubSectionID=206&ArticleID=41543
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Offline GreenCloud

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Asian Man Shot Dead on London Tube
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2005, 01:05:56 PM »
ya..good sheite..pop those suckers good..wonder what kind of gun they used..I thought beelte said there is no need for guns in emgland?..lolo


And Patriot Act?...LMFAo

Chairboy..There has not been ONE SINGLE case brought to courts about some one suing about patriot act

Im am not scared at all about the Patriot Act