Author Topic: New Tank  (Read 1598 times)

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2005, 12:53:35 AM »
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Originally posted by Klum25th


Tho I think the Tiger armor is too strong. I get behind a disable tiger with a T34 and shoot hit reend over and over and they all bounce off. im no more than 10 yrds behind it close enough for a shell to penatrate the armor.


Maybe not. I read of an account in  the Book "Up front" by Bill Maulden  of  the cartoon Willie and Joe in Stars and stripes of an encounter of 3 mobile anti tank guns firing and hitting repeatedly on a single tiger and causing no damage.

the tiger turned its turret and destroyed all 3 with 1 round each
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Offline AdmRose

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« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2005, 01:09:31 AM »
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Since we have the M8 then y couldn't we have the Sherman


It is impossible to destroy a Tiger with an M8's 37MM, even at point blank range.

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I read once that the loss rate ratio of Shermans to Tiger and panthers was like 6:1 in favor of the T&Ps.


I saw on an old Discovery channel show once (can't remember the name of it) that if 4 Shermans engaged one Tiger, only 1 Sherman would survive. It was pure quantity vs. quality - there were simply just more Shermans. They could be replaced easily whereas the Tiger was a valuable commodity. Had the Germans had Tigers in amounts equal to Shermans the war might have turned out differently.

Offline zorstorer

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« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2005, 01:49:09 AM »
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Patton didnt decide which tanks were used.
In fact he warned the army about the tanks.

among other reasons
another reason we didnt have many  larger and heavier tanks was size and the ability to transport them.
In as much as much of the material was transported by rail.
Seems the larger tanks wouldnt fit through any of the train tunnels we had stateside at the time.


His main goal for armored forces was to bypass and avoid enemy armored units.  
Also the M26 only put on 7 tonnes from the M4A3.  The height was reduced and armor was made much thicker.  The M4A3 was 103" wide at the tread (without sand shields) and the M26 was 138" wide (over the sand shields) Also the T23 (later to become the M26) was in trial production in mid 1943.

Offline Furball

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« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2005, 01:49:43 AM »
didn't Wittmans tiger take 17 hits or something before it finally got destroyed?
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Offline SkyTex

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« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2005, 02:12:47 AM »
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Originally posted by AdmRose
It is impossible to destroy a Tiger with an M8's 37MM, even at point blank range.  



Sorry but your wrong, atleast in AH. I have single handedly taken out a tiger in an m8. It's a cheap shot but it works. get going full throttle in 1st gear, hop to your 50cal turret, use your rudders to turn and keep turning around a tiger so he can't get a shot off. use the 50cal to pop his track (was down to i belive 108 rounds out of 500 when the track poped), climb up under his turret range on the non-tracked side. When tracked, he can't lower his turret far enough for a shot thus he is stuck. keep pumping 37mm AP shells into his belly armor and he will blow in about 25 shots. that is, shooting the same spot over and over.

mabey i just got lucky but i killed the tiger1 by myself in an m8 with only 3 busted out tires to show for it. he was shooting at me via his pintle gun while i circled him.

Never say something is impossible :)

Offline Klum25th

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« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2005, 08:46:52 AM »
Its very possible to kill to kill a Tiger with a M8. If we had the sherman take half of 25 shots and wala, theres how many shots to kill a tiger.

Offline croduh

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« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2005, 09:16:48 AM »
we need sherman with flametrower

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2005, 09:26:47 AM »
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Originally posted by zorstorer
His main goal for armored forces was to bypass and avoid enemy armored units.  
Also the M26 only put on 7 tonnes from the M4A3.  The height was reduced and armor was made much thicker.  The M4A3 was 103" wide at the tread (without sand shields) and the M26 was 138" wide (over the sand shields) Also the T23 (later to become the M26) was in trial production in mid 1943.


That was part of the overall strategy used by the american forces. From the grand strategy of operation "Cobra" right down to the small unit level of "fire and movement"
Or as Patton used to say "Hold em by the nose and kick em in the arse" Whereas once part of the force is used to keep the enemy pinned and busy while another part is used to  penetrate the flanks or soft areas and outflank to the rear.

While Patton because he was considered Americas leading Tank expert at the time helped develop the strategy he called it "Blitzkreig with a few improvements" It wasnt his alone.
 Nor was it the decision of Patton as to what types of tanks were used. that was up to Marshal and the high command. Remember Patton was only a 2 Star even at the Casablanca landings.

Patton did warn of the dangers of the Sherman. for exactly the same reason the soldiers called them "Ronsons" or "Purple heart boxes".

It would make sence to use the Shermans for what you discribed inasmuch as they were so fast Much as Cavalry was used getting around to and disrupting the rear areas. while using the  heavier tanks and Mobile AT guns to take on the Panzers & Tigers head on if need be. Using the right tool for the right job.

(I've always wanted to try somethign similar in the game using M8's to get around the front line defending tanks and  into the rear either to the town or keeping re- upping tanks busy and delaying them comming to the spawn area while our own tanks engaged  & destroyedthe enemy armor but there isnt enough
co ordination/ Co operation in the MA  for it to be possible. Perhaps somone with a large enough squad can give it a try and let me know how it works out)

when the Shermans did take on Panzers they used speed and numbers to their advantage. Getting in close and mixing it up with the german armor formations making it difficult for them to hit and difficult for them to hit without shooting each other
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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2005, 09:37:45 AM »
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Originally posted by AdmRose

It was pure quantity vs. quality - there were simply just more Shermans. They could be replaced easily whereas the Tiger was a valuable commodity. Had the Germans had Tigers in amounts equal to Shermans the war might have turned out differently.


 Agreed. Part of the problems with the german armor is they were over engineered (much like most of todays products)

Magnificent and easily the superiour weapon. Just too difficult to keep repaired.
And once they broke down the Germans often had to abandon them cause they couldnt easily fix em. Which culd be a big probem if you get stuck fighting during a retreat.

 Whereas the shermans even if half destroyed were fairly simple to repair clean out the body parts left there by its previous occupants and could quickly be put back into service.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2005, 09:53:42 AM »
The Sherman was deployed and the Pershing delayed for the simple reason of economics, by, of course, the War Production Board. The Sherman was fast, cheap, and easy to manufacture. The idea that the Allies got only the best weapons is completely false. Often, therest of the Allies relied on the Russian position that quantity has a quality all its own. A lot of weapons were chosen on the basis of cost and ease of manufacture.

The main reason for a tank back then was NOT to engage enemy tanks, but rather to support infantry in attacking infantry and fortified positions. Tank destroyers, ike the Hellcat, ere intended to take on tanks by using speed, maneuverability, and a large gun specifically intended and designed for use against heavy armored vehicles. Tanks were not made tough to just to fight  other anks, but to survive being attacked by tank destroyers and artillery.

Patton knew all along the Sherman was outclassed, and would have preferred the Pershing had he been able to get them. His tactic of bypassing enemy armor was developed because he could ill afford to take them on if he could avoid it. He would have still preferred to bypass them if possible, but he would not have been forced to do so if he'd had plenty of Pershings and Hellcats to take on Panzers and Tigers with. Only a fool would prefer the Sherman over the Pershing, and only a fool would attack Tigers nad Panzers head on with Shermans if he could avoid them. Patton was no fool. And he despised wasting men and equipment.
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Offline AdmRose

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« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2005, 11:02:13 AM »
I'd prefer a Sherman over a Hellcat...didn't the Hellcat only have like an inch of armor on it?

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2005, 12:05:07 PM »
To each his own. The Hellcat didn't have a lot of armor. It was designed to fire once, or maybe twice, from cover, and then move quickly. That's why it was the fastest vehicle of its type for a long time. With the Hellcat, you depend on stealth, firepower, and speed. The Sherman is not fast enough to get away, and simply cannot reliably kill German armor without getting in close behind it. The Hellcat CAN kill German armor reliably, and can move fast enough to be a very difficult target. A Tiger or Panzer can easily just shrug off Sherman gunfire until it can hit the Sherman. That's not an option when they face a Hellcat. Either the Hellcat or the Sherman is likely to be a one shot kill for a Panzer or a Tiger, but only the Hellcat is likely to kill a Panzer or Tiger with one shot.

You could get good enough to snipe Tigers and Panzers with a Hellcat and kill them. You simply can't do that with a Sherman.
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Offline AdmRose

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« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2005, 12:22:14 PM »
Maybe I'm dense...but didn't the Hellcat and Sherman both have 76MM guns?

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2005, 01:17:39 PM »
The late  model Sherman (with 76 in the model designation) had the 76MM gun, but it was not exactly the same as the M18 Hellcat's 76MM gun, the Hellcat's gun had different rifling. Some Shermans got the fast rifling version of of the 76MM as well.

Shermans more commonly had the M3 75MM gun, at least until 1944. There were of course other versions of the Sherman with other guns. Most people associate the Sherman with the 75MM gun and not the 76MM gun in the later models.
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Offline pellik

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« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2005, 03:44:49 PM »
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Originally posted by Klum25th
Sherman Tanks could destory Tigers and Panzer but had to get behind the tank to do it. To me the Sherman would be good for like Realistic settings. Put the Japanes tank in the game to and then the sherman wont be the worst tank in the game.

Tho I think the Tiger armor is too strong. I get behind a disable tiger with a T34 and shoot hit reend over and over and they all bounce off. im no more than 10 yrds behind it close enough for a shell to penatrate the armor.


I thought that the notion of shermans being able to destroy tigers if they hit them in the right spot was a myth spread to increase morale amoung the tank crews who had to potentially face the tiger.