The IRA end its armed campaign.

[Hangtime]

The general will report when the job is done, the new church witnesses will speak and the IRA's 'P O'Neill' might well pen his last words of this "war".

The past few days have given us the stuff of history - words and actions that point towards a better peace than the one we have had so far.

But there is another question: Are the loyalist paramilitaries watching and listening?

Because, in the here and now of Northern Ireland, it is their guns that are loudest.

[/b]

I too, hope the loyalists ALSO put their weapons 'beyond use'... and if they don't, that the State's resources be used as expeditiously against them as they were used against the IRA.

Most encouraging developments, indeed!

[lazs2]

I am trying to figure out how my saying that I would kill british soldiers if my demands for a countrywide vote were not met could be translated into me joining the IRA much less killing women and little kids.

I am sure that the british troops there are very competent.   Any group that wished to kill them would have to use their head.

replicant... you say that the people have voted... I read this whole thread and can't see where the entire island of Ireland voted on anything much less haveing british troops on their land.

Again... I would not join the IRA (they kill civilians)..... Again... I would kill soldiers and police (they kill civilians)..

I would hope that I could kill enough soldiers and police that my demands for a vote would be published.

I would kill soldiers.... I bet the soldiers would kill and incarcerate a lot fo civilians to get to me.

So what are the gun laws in the two parts of Ireland?  if they are different countries how do they differ?

lazs

[Skydancer]

Just a point Lazs

The British Army's presence was requested by the catholic population in the late 60's as they were being persecuted by te Proddys and wanted protection.

The welcome news is that troop numbers are now being reduced asa result of the republican movement renouncing terrist tactics and the terrorist group the IRA standing down. Itsall good news realy.

As an aside I think that the tours British troops have to do in NI equips them well for peacekeeping and security roles. John Simpson did an interesting report on the news the other night about how British troops were percieved in Basra.

Many Iraqis interviewed actualy said, whilst they didn't want them there permanently they appreciated their presence and their biggest worry at the moment was that our Govt would withdraw them too soon. One of the things they liked was the fact that they could have a laugh and a joke with British Squaddies. It was notable that British troops were patroling without full combat gear, helmetsand the like.

I maintain that it was a mistake to get involved in the first place but I am changing my opinion on withdrawing the troops. They ought to stay till the Iraqi forces are up to taking over. I do believe that it is better to use the "softer approach" that the British forces use. Their battle for hearts and minds appears to be working.

As for branding you a terrorist sympathiser I think that is wrong. You are the only American who has categoricaly stated in this thread that you do see the IRA as a terrorist organisation and in your words

"If it can be proven that the drunken waste of humanity ted kennedy did so then he should be executed but...

he is not so easy to pin murders on... "

Very true.

By the way when do you fly in the MA? Be good to have another scrap like the last one!

[Hangtime]

Sky, if I may..

1. While obstensibly the presence of the British Military was to keed the loyalist militia and the IRA factions apart, in practice the British Military wound up backing the Loyalists and the Royal Ulster Police.. this left the Catholics with no armed 'protection' other than the IRA .

2. I don't condone or support the IRA. I also don't condone or support the Loyalist Para Military Groups who are also guilty of bombings and heinious atrocities. They also deserve the 'terrorist' monicker, and all it implies.

3. The British Military, the 'Para's' and the Royal Ulster Police have been working together to 'stamp out the IRA menace', excesses have occured, including illegal SAS hit teams operating in country for many years. In effect.. your governments been supplying intel and material support as well as active support to one (pro loyalist) terrorist group to defeat another.

Lastly, again, I condemn both the IRA and the Loyalists for their slaughter of innocents. I applaud the recent efforts to halt and curb British Military involvement in the situation and am glad peace appears to be at last on a faster track than the last cease-fire accorded.

Lets hope it's over.

[Replicant]

Hang

It is true to a certain extent that the British military would not necessarily target the Loyalist groups as much as the Nationalist ones, but be more leanient to a certain degree.  This is because the Republican/Nationalist groups would be targetting the military directly and therefore were more likely to be engaged than the Loyalist groups.  However, the British military have engaged and killed many members of the Loyalist groups (and also imprisoned members too).  I can remember the groups feeling betrayed by the British because they were protecting the Catholics who were the Protestants enemies.  Either terrorists would fight if out if they were backed in a corner, no matter which side they were on and no matter who it was against.

When I was in Newry, NI, the local residents never bothered with the Royal Ulster Constabulary (Police - their Police Station was like Fort Knox!) and instead they'd get in touch with the local Senn Fein representative and they'd send round masked members of the IRA to sort out local problems.  I was actually witness to this whilst I was there!  Very scary!  I took quite a few photos of the area whilst I was there but unfortunately they're back in the UK at the moment.  My Catholic Nothern Irish girlfriend (I'm British Protestant) at the time told me many stories of how some of her friends had been killed or threatened.  Some were simply because a Protestant had fallen in love with a Catholic (other people hit simply worked for British government companies such as the Royal Mail (US Mail)).  This is the issue that worries me the most because hatred is bred into children from a very young age.  It has to change for the future of Ireland.

The British government, and other western governments (including the US agencies such as the CIA) have provided information of known terrorists in Ireland in both North and South of the border.

Now, we just need these old fogeys to let the younger generation take over!

[Toad]

Sky, your blindness and preconception is showing again.

Originally posted by Toad
Nexx, no one here has any sympathy for terrorists. No one I've seen anyway.

I haven't seen a single person supporting the IRA for example.

 

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Replicant
Hang

It is true to a certain extent that the British military would not necessarily target the Loyalist groups as much as the Nationalist ones, but be more leanient to a certain degree.  This is because the Republican/Nationalist groups would be targetting the military directly and therefore were more likely to be engaged than the Loyalist groups.  However, the British military have engaged and killed many members of the Loyalist groups (and also imprisoned members too).  I can remember the groups feeling betrayed by the British because they were protecting the Catholics who were the Protestants enemies.  Either terrorists would fight if out if they were backed in a corner, no matter which side they were on and no matter who it was against.

When I was in Newry, NI, the local residents never bothered with the Royal Ulster Constabulary (Police - their Police Station was like Fort Knox!) and instead they'd get in touch with the local Senn Fein representative and they'd send round masked members of the IRA to sort out local problems.  I was actually witness to this whilst I was there!  Very scary!  I took quite a few photos of the area whilst I was there but unfortunately they're back in the UK at the moment.  My Catholic Nothern Irish girlfriend (I'm British Protestant) at the time told me many stories of how some of her friends had been killed or threatened.  Some were simply because a Protestant had fallen in love with a Catholic (other people hit simply worked for British government companies such as the Royal Mail (US Mail)).  This is the issue that worries me the most because hatred is bred into children from a very young age.  It has to change for the future of Ireland.

The British government, and other western governments (including the US agencies such as the CIA) have provided information of known terrorists in Ireland in both North and South of the border.

Now, we just need these old fogeys to let the younger generation take over!

Yep. Read last night about another Catholic girl being kidnaped, raped and murdered back in March. Grafitti on the alley walls, disgusting. Another Provo splinter group.. street thugs; a gang really...

I hope it can be stopped.. religious violence abolutely disgusts me. Sickening evil.. a freaking menace to society. And yer right, both sides teach the hate to their young.

I fear for our futures.. if modern christians can't live among each other in peace..

[cpxxx]

Originally posted by lazs2
I am trying to figure out how my saying that I would kill british soldiers if my demands for a countrywide vote were not met could be translated into me joining the IRA much less killing women and little kids.

I am sure that the british troops there are very competent.   Any group that wished to kill them would have to use their head.

replicant... you say that the people have voted... I read this whole thread and can't see where the entire island of Ireland voted on anything much less haveing british troops on their land.

Again... I would not join the IRA (they kill civilians)..... Again... I would kill soldiers and police (they kill civilians)..

I would hope that I could kill enough soldiers and police that my demands for a vote would be published.

I would kill soldiers.... I bet the soldiers would kill and incarcerate a lot fo civilians to get to me.

So what are the gun laws in the two parts of Ireland?  if they are different countries how do they differ?

lazs

I think I know what you are getting at. Guerrilla warfare in effect. Many joined the IRA on that basis. Fighting for freedom etc. I met one or two who did just that. They left when it became apparent that the IRA had become terrorists and that killing civilians and planting random bombs was acceptable to them.
In the end the IRA ran into a kind of stalemate with the British army. There was in fact a form of mutual respect. The British army became far too dangerous to attack so the provos went for softer targets.
Killling soldiers didn't work, as after all, soldiers are in effect there to be shot at.  Killing civilians didn't work either, as it happened, hence the end of their campaign.

As an Irishman, I had no problem serving in the British armed services and actually enquired about joining at one stage. But it never worked out. But several friends and acquaintences who did just that. One joined the Paras that I know of. I worked with a guy who served in the Irish Guards, an elite regiment in the British army. He was one of those guys wearing a red jacket and a bearskin guarding the Queen from other Irishmen. None of them qualified as British and were from the republic. The SAS have many Irishmen serving in it.  Yet I would bet money that almost all of them favoured a united Ireland but only through peaceful means. The IRA was the enemy.
So you see the situation was not as clearcut as you think.

On the gun law situation. Northern Ireland falls under British juristiction. The laws are a bit different from Britain, handguns are allowed, mostly for protection purposes and the usual rifles and shotguns are in use but all must be licensed.

In the Republic of Ireland the laws are quite tough, thanks mostly to the IRA who the authorities were afraid would arm themselves by stealing guns from legitimate owners. All handguns and large calibre rifles were taken into custody in the 1970's. Not confiscated, the owners still owned them but couldn't bring them out of the police station. The police wouldn't issue licences for new handguns or large calibre rifles, although strictly speaking there was no law against owning one. This was tested in court recently by a sports target shooter. He won the case and later a European and world championship with his new rifle. This opened the door and now you can buy handguns (with restrictions). The only problem is that you must have a seperate licence and pay a yearly fee for each gun.  Apparently there are around 213, 000 legally held firearms in Ireland. That in population of less than four million.

[Swoop]

Originally posted by cpxxx
First off Swoop this I find seriously offensive:
 

Hmm. I chose the wrong time to duck outta this thread didn't I.....

Right then, glad I checked back in.

Cpxxx,

I am not of the opinion that everyone from Southern Ireland is a 'redneck mick'.  I was speaking from the point of view of a fella I used to work with while in Holland who's from Belfast and certainly does think the entire population of Eire are 'redneck micks'.  I recall vividly a party he threw during which he regaled us with a lengthy, and - at the time - very humorous monolog involving convincing a lad from Dublin that there's a wall between north and south that he used to throw stones over as a kid.  

However, I'm digressing.  

I don't think of Irishmen as redneck micks. I withdraw, retract, rescind, revoke and bury the statement where the sun doesn't shine and, as I can see while reading back over the post that you could certainly take it that I do, apologise for the wording.

[Dowding]

Wait a minute, Hangtime. I'm not the one posting qualified condemnation of terrorists.

Unlike yourself, I haven't posted apologetic statements on the behalf of the IRA et al.

Skydancer, if I was an irish patriot, I'd bomb the hell outta the invader.. I'd strike where I could, as often as I could and I'd take the fight to the enemy's shores the moment I could.

It would seem you are well versed with the mindset of the Warrington freedom-fighter (sic).

As for British atrocities, I make no excuses for them. My hands are clean - and my conscience clear. Ironically, there is often much talk on these boards of 'understanding' the wrong-doer as a fault of liberalism. I have no intention of 'understanding' the terrorist, or feeling 'empathy'. I'll leave that to you and your compatriots.

[Skydancer]

Dowding generaly I agree though don't confuse understanding with sympathising. In order to defeat your enemy you must first try to understand him. Thats not "liberalism" thats sense!

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Dowding
Wait a minute, Hangtime. I'm not the one posting qualified condemnation of terrorists.

Unlike yourself, I haven't posted apologetic statements on the behalf of the IRA et al.

It would seem you are well versed with the mindset of the Warrington freedom-fighter (sic).

As for British atrocities, I make no excuses for them. My hands are clean - and my conscience clear. Ironically, there is often much talk on these boards of 'understanding' the wrong-doer as a fault of liberalism. I have no intention of 'understanding' the terrorist, or feeling 'empathy'. I'll leave that to you and your compatriots.

Well, I could tell yah what I really think, but it'd just get censored.

So instead, I've decided to join the IRA so I can collect the bottle of baileys creme bounty. I'll get the cats and the recruiter drunk and i'll talk him into sending 'em to an IRA terrorist bombmaking camp in Libya. Once they get trained up in suicide school I'll send 'em to england to bomb yer ass.

Cheers, Dowding!

[Excel1]

Originally posted by lazs2
I am trying to figure out how my saying that I would kill british soldiers if my demands for a countrywide vote were not met could be translated into me joining the IRA much less killing women and little kids.

lazs, the troubles in Northern Ireland that led to the bloodshed between the British , catholics and protestants over the last 30 or 40 years originated from the civil rights protests of the catholic minority in the mid to late 1960's. They wanted and end to the institutionized discrimination against them by the protestant majority. When the protestant goverment in NI outlawed the civil rights marches the trouble really begun. Both the police and protestant mobs got stuck into the catholics, it was open season on them. The discrimination had turned to persecution and the IRA were of no help to the catholics as they had largely disarmed and disbanded in the early 1960's.

The plight of the catholics in NI was for all the world to see, and even though it was causing huge embarresment to the British government they were reluctant to get directly involved, but they had no choice because their puppet government in NI had lost control of the situation there.

The IRA had reformed to protect the catholics from the protestants and police. British troops were sent to NI in 1969 to do the same, and initaly they did that. There were many catholics that had expectations that the Brits would put things right in NI but the British governments desire to rid NI of the IRA once and for all saw them take a pro- protestant anti-catholic stance that alienated the catholics and at the same time increased the support for the IRA.

The IRA lost a large part of it's support through it's use of terror tactics that I don't condone, but it had a large support base to start with, protestant thugs, the RUC and British policy in NI ensured that.

Excel

[lazs2]

well... I am learning a lot here.  thanks cpxx and excel.  I guess that I would be happy if my countrymen were doing everything they could to peacfully unite my country but I am too impatient and stupid to participate in that so I would do my part by killing british soldiers and cops and politicians.  

I guess where I get the (wrong?) impression that I could do that is not because I don't think the soldiers are competent and well trained (I do) but that I mistakenly think in terms of the U.S..  One huge continent with lots of wilderness and big cities to hide in.   I imagine it is somewhat harder to lay low in such a tiny island.

dowding... I think you still qualify as a liberal... liberals feel sympathy only for SOME criminals and scumbags... ones that don't share their ideas are never given any sympathy.

lazs

[cpxxx]

Apology accepted Swoop. It did seem out of character. As for your Belfast friend. That view is still common in the North with the more insular types. When they do visit they are shocked to find a normal modern liberal rich European country populated with people who could give a s*** what religion you are. Unlike the North which still clings to a lot of the old sectarianism.

Actually Lazs, small though Ireland is, there are plenty of places to hide out in the wilderness. Not an hour out of Dublin city, there is a area which is completely devoid of any evidence of human existence except for a road called the 'military road' built two hundred years ago by the British to chase rebels.

Your idea of shooting cops and soldiers is all very well but suppose all the cops and many of the soldiers were actually fellow countrymen? That is the much of the problem.