Author Topic: The IRA end its armed campaign.  (Read 3898 times)

Offline Skydancer

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The IRA end its armed campaign.
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2005, 06:20:36 PM »
Nope.

Just think that funding terrorists is wrong and worse when the source of the funds is a country allied to us!

Same as I'm sure you must feel as I do about Muslim communities in Europe backing Islamist terror.

Americans funding the IRA are the same as British Muslims backing Al Quaeda.

Rotten scumbags the lot of em.

Offline cpxxx

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The IRA end its armed campaign.
« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2005, 07:31:06 PM »
Just a couple of points, corrections really.

Skydancer;
Quote
As for the Protestant paramillitary groups. Yes they are just as bad. Racist thugs with guns. But I don't recall them planting bombs ( could be wrong)


You are wrong, they did plant bombs. Never bothered with warnings either. In fact the worst single atrocity until the 1998 Omagh bomb was perpretrated by them, not in Northern Ireland but the Republic, with simultaneous bombs in Dublin and Monaghan in 1974.  33 people dead. There are persistent but unproven reports they had help from elements in the British security services.  British terrorists.

Swoop
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We already gave em back the South, it just happens that the North didn't want to go.


You didn't give it back. We took it back with using guerrilla warfare that became a model for other countries seeking independance. Northern Ireland was artificially created  to ensure a Unionist majority. It's worth pointing out that the majority of the people of Ireland consistently voted for home rule within Britain during the 19th century, not independance. As did the the House of Commons in London. This was constantly blocked by the Unionist/Conservative dominated House of Lords until 1914.  So much for democracy.


karnak
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The fact is that the two Irelands are the way the people in Ireland want it right now. The IRA didn't like that and so took to blowing people up. I'm not saying the Brit's hands are not stained, but the IRA had no justification at all.


Not quite, I think what we have right now is an acceptance of the status quo and a rejection of terrorism as a means of achieving the perfectly legitimate goal of a united Ireland. The IRA did not in fact start the trouble in 1969. They actually failed to protect the Catholic population when the Protestant mobs and the Police attacked Catholic areas. They were sneeringly referred to as IRA I Ran Away. The British army were brought in to protect the Catholics. They fought many gun battles with loyalist (ironic that) terrorists. The British army fighting British terrorists.

Later the newly constituted Provisional IRA began to attack the British Army which was in effect a copy of the original guerrila war in the 1920's.  Many were idealists but soon they became the straightforward terrorists. In a further irony, virtually all of them are in fact British citizens. More British terrorists.  


An interesting point in regard to the British army was made by Gerry Adams recently. There are more British soldiers in NI than in Iraq.  


Just on the point of supposed US support for the IRA. Yes some Americans did support the IRA.  But the US government never did and there are many instances of positive American help to end the problems.  In fact both sides courted the US government as a sort of honest broker. Actually it is difficult to envisage the current peace process without American help. Blaming the US is unwarranted. The blame lies elsewhere.



You know, at this stage whether or not Northern Ireland rejoins the rest of Ireland or remains under the control of Britain is not particularly important to most people north or south. As long as you can live your life without fear of intimidation or sectarianism or bigotry. Being British was never really a problem for the Irish. Not being able to control their own affairs was. It is quite likely that Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK for the forseeable future if it becomes peaceful and prosperous. The British taxpayer of course will have to continue subsidising NI for many years to come for that to happen.

Many Catholics even now are quite happy to be British and Irish. They would vote that way too if there was no fear of a return to old Unionist supremacy and discrimation. But look who the Unionist population voted for in the last election, the Reverend Ian Paisley. A fire breathing old style bigot. The Catholics voted for Sinn Fein. Not much meeting of minds there.    

But look, at the end of the day, the IRA finally woke up and smelt the coffee. War didn't work and never would have.  Politics is the way ahead. It's a belated recognition. But they made the leap.

Let's just forget about the blame game. We should decommision our bitterness the way the IRA are dumping their guns.  Much as I hate the IRA. I recognise they did the right thing at last.

This war is over although another more dangerous one has started.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2005, 07:38:10 PM by cpxxx »

Offline Swoop

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The IRA end its armed campaign.
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2005, 04:50:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cpxxx

You didn't give it back. We took it back with using guerrilla warfare that became a model for other countries seeking independance. Northern Ireland was artificially created  to ensure a Unionist majority. It's worth pointing out that the majority of the people of Ireland consistently voted for home rule within Britain during the 19th century, not independance. As did the the House of Commons in London. This was constantly blocked by the Unionist/Conservative dominated House of Lords until 1914.  So much for democracy.

 


I'd like to know your source cos this is different to the history I learned.  The 'home rule act' (put forth originally by Gladstone - the British Prime Minister) was blocked in the house of Lords due to backhanders from rich Irish businessmen who had the most to lose.

On 21 January 1919, the IRA shot dead 2 Irish policemen in county Tipperary, and this marked the beginning of what is now known as the War of Independence. The Catholic church condemned the IRA, and the locals, who knew exactly who the IRA men involved were, were also appalled. However the British clamped down hard in response and soon a guerrilla war was underway in counties Cork and Tipperary. With the post-war British army in a shambles, they were only willing to send over groups of ex-First World War solders to fight. The combination of black police uniforms and tan army outfits gave rise to the term 'Black and Tans' for these men. The 'Black and Tans' were undisciplined and often shot innocent civilians in reprisal for attacks on them. These attacks helped to create and then strengthen local support for the IRA.

In 1920 the IRA, led by a Corkman named Michael Collins, concluded that the war was not having the desired effect and decided to intensify the war. On 21 November 1920, the IRA shot dead 11 British agents. In reprisal, a group of Black and Tans fired randomly into a crowd of civilians at a Gaelic football match at Croke Park, Dublin. 12 people were killed and the day became known as Bloody Sunday. (Not to be confused with another Bloody Sunday much later.) Ten days later the IRA shot dead 17 British soldiers in county Cork.

Meanwhile, despite the conflict, the British government decided to press ahead with Home Rule and passed the Government of Ireland Act in 1920. This gave Ireland 2 Parliaments (each with a Prime Minister), one for the Unionists and one for the Nationalists, but kept both Parliaments answerable to the overall UK parliament in London. Six counties (Londonderry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Antrim, Down and Armagh) were to be under the Unionist Parliament, and the citizens there agreed to the creation of 'Northern Ireland' by way of a referrendum. The first elections for the Northern Ireland parliament were held in May 1921 and the Unionists got 40 of the 52 seats. It first met in Belfast in June 1921. The new Northern Ireland Prime-Minister was the Ulster Unionist leader, Sir James Craig.

The elections were held for the Nationalist Parliament in Dublin in May 1921 also, and Sinn Féin (under Eammon de Valera) took 124 seats with the remaining 4 being taken by Unionist candidates. However Sinn Féin refused to recognise the Parliament and instead continued to meet in Dail Eireann. The 4 Unionists were the only ones who attended the new Parliament. The IRA, under Collins, continued to fight on for more independence, and made regular attacks on Protestants in Northern Ireland too. Finally stalemate was reached and a truce was signed between the IRA and the British on 11 July 1921. After 4 months of negotiations a treaty was hammered out which Michael Collins signed on behalf of the IRA. However he did not fully consult his colleagues, many of whom were horrified that he had accepted partition. This is why he is now regarded by some as a traitor.

The 'Anglo-Irish Treaty', which was agreed between Collins and the British government, replaced the Dublin Home-Rule Parliament which had been created by the Government of Ireland Act. The new Act created an Ireland which was much more independent than it would have been under pure Home Rule, and certainly much more independent than the bit of Ireland ruled by the Northern Ireland government. The new country was to be called the 'Irish Free State' and would have its own army, although it would remain within the British Commonwealth. This is a similar status to that which Canada has today. Britain would also have a representative in Ireland and would keep some naval bases in Irish waters. The treaty also set up a Boundary Commission which was to fine-tune the border to take account of Unionist/Nationalist communities close to it. The Sinn Fein leader, Eamonn de Valera, became the first Prime Minister of the Irish Free State.

The UK was renamed 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' to reflect the change. To oversee that the 2 Irish states got along, a Council of Ireland was set up to manage relations. The British believed that the 2 Parliaments would soon settle their differences and agree to unite, and the Council of Ireland was to oversee this reunification as well. However, in the end, the Council of Ireland never met.

De Valera, however, was furious that Collins had signed the treaty. To him it still fell much too short of what he had been fighting for, which was an independent Ireland covering all 32 counties. However, another party leader, Arthur Griffith, disagreed with de Valera's idealist stance and strongly supported the treaty. Most members of the IRA who supported the treaty were transformed into the first official Irish Army. The split between the pro-and anti-treaty was so narrow, that Sinn Fein decided to have a vote on it in the Dail. When the Dail voted 64-57 in favour of the treaty, de Valera and a considerable number of Sinn Fein members walked out in protest. Griffith subsequently replaced de Valera as Prime Minister.
However it was not going to be that simple - those who had been outvoted in the Dail were not prepared to simply accept the rule of a Dail which had supported what they regarded as a 'treacherous' treaty. In April 1922, the anti-treaty IRA seized control of the Dublin Four-Courts and other key buildings. The situation grew very tense as the new Irish government tried to mediate with the IRA. However, the government quickly lost its patience and in June Michael Collins ordered the Irish Army to shell the Four-Courts. He succeeded in driving the IRA out of Dublin but had also triggered the Irish Civil War. The fire which the Irish Army started in the Four-Courts destroyed many priceless historic documents, including all of Ireland's accumulated census data. This makes the job of genealogists today much more difficult.

The war went on for almost a year, and was particularly intensive in Connaught and Munster. It was basically a guerilla war, involving sniper attacks, ambushes and raids. Slowly but surely the Army drove the IRA into the mountains and, as the fighting continued to disrupt local life, the IRA lost the support of the locals on which it relied. Therefore the IRA finally called a halt to its campaign in April 1923. Among the casualties of the Civil War was Michael Collins, who was shot dead in an ambush in his native county Cork. Arthur Griffith, the Prime Minister of the Free State, died of natural causes during the war.

Now I'd especially like to know how 'the people of Ireland' were supposed to have voted for home rule in the 19th century when they didn't have a parliament and the only referendum held that I'm aware of was in 1921 when the population of Northern Ireland voted to stay British.  The vote for home rule went on in the British parliament and House of Lords.  And of the 3 votes held, the first was defeated in the House of Commons, the 2nd in the House of Lords and the 3rd passed.....in 1920.

And, on a sidenote, many people seem to think the British have been in Ireland for 200 years or so.  Incorrect.  The original English (Norman) invasion of Ireland happened in 1169.


Offline Dowding

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The IRA end its armed campaign.
« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2005, 05:38:29 AM »
"It's a question of when." - Toad

The epitaph of an IRA apologist?
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Toad

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The IRA end its armed campaign.
« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2005, 09:27:53 AM »
Perhaps this will be the epitaph of a British colonialist?

"If you can hold the land long enough, with or without using force, you can claim what happened "before" doesn't matter "now". It's all about when."
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Skydancer

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The IRA end its armed campaign.
« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2005, 09:58:39 AM »
The US has no colonies these days?

Of course they're not called colonies. They have different names to describe the same thing.

;)

Offline Jackal1

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The IRA end its armed campaign.
« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2005, 10:13:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skydancer

Just think that funding terrorists is wrong and worse when the source of the funds is a country allied to us!
 


  So some people here helped fund the IRA. Big whoop. A very small factor in a very large world.




Quote
Same as I'm sure you must feel as I do about Muslim communities in Europe backing Islamist terror.


  Actualy, I don`t feel anything about them. It`s a given and expected.
  There are extremist in every society, country and in every corner of the world. That`s just the facts Ma`am.
Nothing you can do about it. It`s human nature.

Quote
Americans funding the IRA are the same as British Muslims backing Al Quaeda.


  The two situations are so different they are beyond compare.

  You always seem so focused on the U.S. that you usualy are missing the big picture and , quite frankly, always come out stepping on your own wee wee when you start these idiotic tirades about the evil U.S. empire.
  It makes no difference what the subject, from government to guns, food, weather, time of day, weekend sports to rat killing.........you always try to slip a little ant-U.S. sentiment in.  You expecting maybe a big conversion to your way of thinking or what? I hope not. I`d hate to see us  have to start the fight against communism again.
  I`m curious......do you ever read the many, many responses to your comments? If so, do you happen to notice any pattern here? I seriously doubt it.
  You ever wonder why the majority of the Brits , Aussies, Americans, etc seem to have no problem getting along on this board, while you can draw sparks from a turnip?
  You come up with so many woes and dislikes that you express personaly offends you or makes your life a living hell, to listen to you tell it, but it boils down to the U.S. being the root of all evil in 98% of your posts.
  If the majority of folks from your neck of the woods felt as you do and expressed themselves as you do, there would be no alliance.
  Even though you have a hair trigger when it comes to saying you are not anti-U.S., I don`t believe you actualy have a clue how utterly crystal clear your hatred, and even more importantly, your jealousy for the U.S. comes shining through.
  Please take the time to go back through some of the threads you have become involved in and look at the pattern. After that, look at the response.
  Give it a look, then give it a rest.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2005, 10:16:57 AM by Jackal1 »
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Toad

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The IRA end its armed campaign.
« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2005, 10:56:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skydancer
The US has no colonies these days?

Of course they're not called colonies. They have different names to describe the same thing.

;)


Really?

I call.

Name a few present "American colonies". Show how they are exactly the same as what the British did in India, Central/East/South Africa, Hong Kong, Malta and a host of others.

Go ahead. Show us how it's "the same thing". Might as well toss Ireland in there too. Show us how conquering Ireland, creating the Plantation of Ulster with 20,000 non-Irish immigrants and dividing Ireland into two separate countries forevermore is like something we are doing.


Quote
Jackal1

Even though you have a hair trigger when it comes to saying you are not anti-U.S., I don`t believe you actualy have a clue how utterly crystal clear your hatred, and even more importantly, your jealousy for the U.S. comes shining through.
[/b]

Werd.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Replicant

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The IRA end its armed campaign.
« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2005, 11:01:10 AM »
Toad, what has this got to do with the IRA ending its armed campaign?  It just that it's coming across that your happy that we're getting out just-deserts for what our ancestors did?
NEXX

Offline Toad

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The IRA end its armed campaign.
« Reply #69 on: July 30, 2005, 11:15:53 AM »
Not at all Replicant.

I'm Irish descent; I've said that before. I've never given a penny to Noraid. I haven't contributed to any sort of "Free Ireland" organization or really any charity that was exclusively Irish.

However, I am pointing out how everyone, everywhere uses the same excuses to justify stealing land. I don't leave the US out of that category. As someone pointed out earlier, it probably goes back to the time of the Cro-Magnon stealing land from the Neanderthals.

In short, I don't see any justification. Not for the Brits in Ireland, not for the Brits in pre-US North America, not for the French in Indo-China, not for anyone anywhere.

It's not like India asked you guys to come straighten out their society and impose British rule or anything.

So let's just all agree it was wrong, eh? Attempts to justify the theft are ludicrous. The question is always "what do we do now"? There's no problem if the particular aggrieved party isn't actively killing people to get their land back. (Example: Native Americans in the US and Canada. They aren't blowing things up, so the countries involved give them just enough to keep that from happening.) There is a problem if the aggrieved party is blowing things up. Palesting for example. In that event, it takes more than beads and blankets to address the problem.

All I'm pointing out is what I've posted several times in this thread. A lot of people seem to subscribe to this theory:

"If you can hold the land long enough, with or without using force, you can claim what happened "before" doesn't matter "now". It's all about when."

I think it's BS. Colonialism was always wrong; it happened and now we have to deal with the consequences.

The Irish question? Let the voters in the ENTIRE country vote on unificiation or division, both "North" and "South" and be done with it.

Shoulda been done long ago.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Hangtime

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The IRA end its armed campaign.
« Reply #70 on: July 30, 2005, 11:16:02 AM »
Guam, Puerto Rico and the American Samoas?

All of 'em have had national referendums. All of 'em prefer to keep their current status. All of 'em are 'home ruled'. None of them have armies of occupation camped out there.
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Offline Replicant

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« Reply #71 on: July 30, 2005, 11:31:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad

I think it's BS. Colonialism was always wrong; it happened and now we have to deal with the consequences.

The Irish question? Let the voters in the ENTIRE country vote on unificiation or division, both "North" and "South" and be done with it.

Shoulda been done long ago.


I don't agree that it should be the entire Ireland that decide, it should be broken down first.  First it should be Northern Ireland that decide whether they want to be part of a unified Ireland.  That allows them the option of remaining within the United Kingdom or wanting to be part of a united Ireland.  If they want to break away from the UK then the Republic of Ireland should then vote to decide if they want to accept Northern Ireland.  This is the only democratic and 'safe' way of dealing with the issue.  You can't force one country to accept another without a vote.

As for the colonisation issue... well, there's two sides of the coin.  If no one colonised then we'd all be back in our caves.  But for those that did colonised there are many good and bad issues regarding this (milking a country and providing technology/education/medicine etc.).  I'm half-English, half-Welsh, only part is Celtic, but I don't have any regrets with ancient Briton being invaded by the Roman's, Angle's, Viking's, Norman's, Goth's, Saxon's etc., even if it meant that Briton's/Celt's were forced into other parts of the country/isles.  It's just one of those things that's in the past and no matter what our opinions on the subject is now we can't change anything.  Some may want to change things but some opt to break away (like many commonwealth countries - which has actually been encouraged) and others want to remain.  As Swoop's post stated earlier, Britain tried to allow Ireland this early in the 20th Century but it all went wrong and that can happily quite easily with other countries too.
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Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #72 on: July 30, 2005, 11:38:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Werd.



Up. :)
YO YO YO.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2005, 12:02:56 PM »
The division of Ireland was artificial to begin with. To me, what you suggest merely perpetuates that artificial division. It's a "stacked deck". You want to settle the question? Ask ALL the people and then abide by the decision. If after the decision there are those that foster "insurgency" against the result, it would be the responsibility of all to stamp out the insurgency and enforce the results of the vote.


Quote
It's just one of those things that's in the past and no matter what our opinions on the subject is now we can't change anything.  


:)

"If you can hold the land long enough, with or without using force, you can claim what happened "before" doesn't matter "now". It's all about when."

:)  :)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Replicant

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The IRA end its armed campaign.
« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2005, 12:23:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
The division of Ireland was artificial to begin with. To me, what you suggest merely perpetuates that artificial division. It's a "stacked deck". You want to settle the question? Ask ALL the people and then abide by the decision. If after the decision there are those that foster "insurgency" against the result, it would be the responsibility of all to stamp out the insurgency and enforce the results of the vote.



 


I don't think that would ever work with the Catholic/Protestant divide, any different and you risk all the troubles starting again.  Plus the United Kingdom have a right to protect and abide with their British subjects wishes, i.e. British in Northern Ireland.  If someone wants to remain British and be part of the UK then the British Government must get involved and that's why it should just be NI that vote first since if it was a positive vote to leave the UK then it automatically takes out the British Government equation.

As for 'enforcing' the results of the vote, as you put it, well, that would prove very interesting considering what's gone on there military/police wise over the last 40 years.  IRA/UFF mark II.
NEXX