Spoke to Pyro re Spits

[Kev367th]

We thoguht of that and threw it out for 2 reasons -

1) We wanted the bare minimum of aircraft, even to the point were 1 could sub for another.
2) To help stop the "Not another spit" whines.

First two Spit squadrons ( Spit IX) swapped to 150 grade fuel May 1944, 2TAF given permission to use 150 grade fuel Nov 1944.

Without going through every individual squadron record (feel free I really havent got the time), knowing how many for any given month used it is impossible.
Unless you have a source you can quote, with scanned pages or links to scanned pages to back it up.
E.g. where did you get March 45 from?

As Karnak said they (XVI) could be used in place of the LF IX for DDay. If you actaully bother reading through the whole thread you'll see that the VIII or XVI has been consistently referred to as a standin for the 1943 LF IX. Partly my fault I should have been more clearer.

Thought I'd copy this from other thread.
Paste form Kurfursts own site -

Olivier Lefebvre, noted authority on the BF 109, has stated:

AFAIK 1.98ata boost was cleared late February but it seems to have been slowly introduced into service, I suspect the adjustments needed on the engine and the change of sparkplugs type (supply problems ???) took longer than expected. From other documents I know that C3 and B4 had severe quality problems beginning in late 1944. While it was not much of a problem with low boost, it had some serious effect on higher boost, so it might also have slowed down the introduction of 1.98ata boost. At least DB documents underlined the need for cleaner fuels than those in use at that time. You can safely assume that by March 1945 1.98 ata boost was being introduced, unfortunately I do not have much details for April 1945, but I doubt it would have changed much, given the situation.

So he is advocating a 1945!! 1.98ata K-4 based on an ASSUMPTION, while ignoring a FACT - 150 grade fuel usage started May 1944.

[Kurfürst]

Kev,

stop being a pathetic liar.


Furthermore, the statement, or the better, denial becomes futile in view of the orders issued to units to increase boost pressure to 1.98ata, according to a classified order dated 20th March 1945 from the LW high command (OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45) :

"The development in the equipment status of day fighter units is based on the standard types laid down in the emergency program and anticipates :

 

for Bf 109 units    : K-4

for FW 190 units : D-9, D-12 with changeover to Ta 152 H and C

 

The arrival of the Ta 152 and it`s assignment to FW 190 units will result in an improvement in the equipment status of these units.

Essentially Bf 109 development will conclude with the K-4 an will inevitably lead to the conversion of Bf 109 units - those not scheduled for disbandment - to TL (jet fighters). Homogeneity of the equipment is to be strived for, combination of similar types is temporary and to be accepted based on levels of production."

 

 

The proposed changes to units equipped with Bf 109 were as follows :

 

OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45
 
No. Unit Present type Convert to Notes
1. III./ JG 1 Bf 109 G-10 He 162 (April/May) -
2.  II. / JG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
3. III. / JG 3 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
4. III. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
5. IV. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 K-4 -
6. III. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
7. IV. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
8. III. / JG 6 Bf 109 G-14/AS K-4 when deliveries permit -
9. II. / JG 11 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
10. I. / JG 27 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
11. II. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
12. III. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
13. I. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
14. III. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
15. IV. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
16. II. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 when deliveries permit -
17. III. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
18. II. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
19. III. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
20. IV. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
21. I. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 when deliveries permit -
22. II. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
23. III. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
24. III. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6 via K-4 to Me 262 planned, deadline
25. IV. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6 via K-4 to Me 262 -
26. I. / KG(J) 6  Bf 109 G-10/R6 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
27. II. / KG(J) 6  Bf 109 K-4 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
30. I. / KG(J) 27 Bf 109 G-10/R6 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
31. I. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 G-10/R6 - -
32. II. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 K-4 - to industrial defense
33. Ist Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
34. IInd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
35. IIIrd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -

 

This order, apart from ordering 90% of the existing 109 units to convert to the Bf 109 K-4 as soon as deliveries permit, also notes in relation of I./JG 27, III./JG 27, III./JG 53, IV./JG 53 to increase the maximum boost pressures to 1,98 ata manifold pressure. It is not known if and how many units had converted to 1,98ata before that order came, but it should be noted these units, in particular III./JG 27, III./JG 53 and IV./JG 53 were the major users of the Bf 109 K-4 in the Lufwaffe.

 

Overview of unit strenghts for the units that used 1,98ata. As per 9th April 1945.

The list of 1,98ata units is most likely incomplete. Source : Alfred Price : The Last year of the Luftwaffe
 
Unit On hand Servicable Type

I./JG 27 29 13 Bf
III./JG 27 19 15
III./JG 53 40 24
IV./JG 53 54 27
Total 142 79

[Guppy35]

Why does it not surprise me that somehow this ended up being Spit v 109 again

Lets look at it differently.

The 190D9 arrived in October 44, roughly the same time frame that 2 TAF went +25 boost for its Spit LFIXe and XVIe squadrons.

If we're using time frame, you still have the unperked D9 yet we're looking at not having a Spit that was used in much larger numbers in the same time frame, and if we do get it, talk is that it would be perked.

As near as I can tell the biggest beef is the supposed climb rate.  Kev and others including myself don't believe the 5700 fpm number is accurate and that in fact it would be a fair amount lower, so that fear of the climb rate shouldn't be the issue.

I suppose what it comes down to is how much the MA is going to play into the decisions Pyro makes.

If this is purely for ToD, then the +18 boost LFIX or LFXVI would fill the bill, but if the MA is part of the equation, what Kev is asking and I agree, is that there should be an unperked Spit that gives the RAF fans a bird that can keep up with the other unperked hot rods whether it be LW, Soviet or American.

Maybe the better option is to beg Pyro for the XII.  Then you are talking a 1943 Spit that did see combat from April 43 41 squadron pilots scored first, to September 44 when the last two 190s went down to XII guns of 41 Squadron.

For the lower alt airwar of the MA it would be perfect as it was built to operate in that height range.

No arguments about +boost ratings etc.  

9 190s and 109s for no loss October 20, 1943 and apparently no overclaims that day.

Dan/CorkyJr

[Kev367th]

Lol Kurfurst you keep on spewing that crap - 142...ONLY 79 were usuable.
So I guess what you want everyone to believe is that the order was issued 20 March 1945, and miraculously by April all 79 were running 1.98ata? Despite lack of fuel, parts etc.
Your only firm peice of evidence is that there were 79 usable K4's, you have nothing that actually shows

• number of K4s were converted, and I have already said I agree some must have been. I just don't believe ALL were.

On ther other hand I can post 2 docs that clearly show two complete Spit 9 sqns took 2 days off and converted to 150 grade May 1944. No assumptions, no guesswork..a FACT backed up by documentation.

TA-152 - Another one where around 60-70 actualy were used, you make it sound like the skies were full of them.

Proposed changes do not always turn into ACTUAL changes, especially in a country that was in Germanys mess at the end of Mar 45.
Perfect example in your list look at how many (20 out of 32) are listed as "When deliveries permit", didn't happen did it.

I propose you go back to other forums you infest and spew your garbage there...do I have a second?

Dan - I dont think it was Oct, 2TAF didn't get clearance until Nov.

[Angus]

Why does it not  surprize me that Guppy promotes the XII
Anyway, be aware that Some VIII's and IX's hit 20K in 5 minutes.
For an aircraft with more fuel load as the VIII (as well as tropicalization) that is quite good, - and it is very good up high as well (Merlin 70)
So, - ooops, just hijacked this into a VIII vs XII thread

[onions4u]

low  alt. Spit XII and  Seafire III would be my vote, and then something new like P39/P63 or Ki 44, Ki 102 or.  How about Mig 1, PE 8, Mig 3, PE 2, TU-2, IL-10 or since we have the hardly used in WWII P47n / 20mm F4U how about a Reggiane 2005 only 29 made but, was made and used in 1943. Now that im on Italy
how about Fiat 55 or .Reggiane 2002 and Marchetti SM79. Don't get me wrong any new plane is great but having something new  not just more models of planes we have would be great too.  Oh and I can't forget the A26

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Kev367th


Dan - I dont think it was Oct, 2TAF didn't get clearance until Nov.

Yep, that's why I said roughly the same time

Point being 25+ squadrons of Spit LFIXs LFXVIs were using it in the winter of 44 til the end.

If we're going to accept a K4 that was operating in smaller numbers from April 45, I'd think  that many Spits operating at +25 boost wouldn't be asking too much

Dan/CorkyJr
Jumping on the Spit XII bandwagon....not that I was ever off

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Maybe it`s not about performance, but the minimal number of Spit IXs running at +25lbs most of the time.

According the Neil Stirling, there were only 2-3 Sqns running at +25 lbs during 1944, out of 37. Less than 10%... There were no XVI sqns, of course. To be honest, I thought to be a lot more around but there wasn`t.

+25lbs was not introduced in numbers until the beginnnig of 1945, by 25 Sqns - about half or less the total number of Merlin 66 engines Spitfires. I remember Kev arguing in another thread arguing that planes with so late introduction and such small numbers should not be included at all. He should apply this  to the Spitfire as well, or not to any plane. Asking for the highest performing variants of your favourite type and trying to deprieve others from theirs at the same time is not very tasteful.

You know I'm really surpised I missed this one.
You really need to make your mind up.
In another forum you say 3 sqns of Spit 9 in 1944 @25lbs, followed by another 30 @25lbs in Jan 1945.

The only thing distasteful is your apparent thinking that no-one reads any other forums, so you can just put what you want and we should accept it.

Another one
"*LF MkXVIe, +25 lbs, clipped wings representing the few upboosted of 1944, and the major number of upboosted ones of 1945, the stronger armament and also giving the option of clipped wings. Bubblecanopy too, perhaps, but afaik it was really-really late, March 1945 or something, so not very representative of the IX/XVI..."

Ok thanks your advocating a Spit XVI @25lbs should be added. Mention a bubbletop and say its not very representative (I agree), but neither is as unknown number of K4's @ 1.98ata.

Finally
Originally posted by Kev367th
No the LF XVI at 18lbs boost is NOT 1944, more accurately its a 1943 Spit LF IX. Spits ran 18lbs boost starting with the Merlin 66 in 1943.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You accuse others with ignorance on Spitfire history, but you yourself display the finest examples of it.

NO, you are wrong, it appears 95% the MkIXs did only run at +18 lbs in 1944. Yes, you are half right, +18 lbs Spit9s were around from beginning 1943, in small numbers, with 4 MkV being around for every MkIX.

You just confirmed what I said, but accuse me of being wrong.
I said they started running 18lb boost in 1943, not ALL ran 18lbs boost.

Summary - (love this bit)
Jan 1945 - 33 sqns Spit IX @ 25lbs boost = 396 operational ac
Jan 1945 - 7 sqns Spit 14 @ 21lbs boost = 84 operational ac (6 x F, 1 X FR)
Jan 1945 - 11 109-G10 definately on 1.98ata
April 1945 - 79 109K-4 running who knows what because you haven't produced one shred of concrete evidence.

Now which is the rarer bird?


Its like talking to brickwall, probably get more sense out of one.
In fact the best thing I can do is ignore you, until you produce 1 thing that proves beyond a doubt any K4s @ 1.98ata.