Spoke to Pyro re Spits

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Guppy35
I keep going back to the Spit VIII pilot's notes on climb.  And I keep wanting to throw out what someone did testing as opposed to what the squadron pilots were operating at.

Image from the pilots notes.  Yes I know it's 100 octane and +18 but note how it's limited to +12 for the Merlin 66 for climb and max take off.

+18 is only used for max combat boost and then for only 5 minutes.

We need something to show that +25 was used in all aspects of operating the Spit LFIX or LFXVI.

My primary Spitfire source replied but is out of town for a week away from his resources, but promises to get on it as soon as he returns.  Not that we're going to have that much patience

Dan/CorkyJr

I think all its showing is-
That at 18lbs (full boost 100 octane) you can run 5 mins.
12lbs boost allows you to run an hour.

Prob same as variable boost turbos for cars, higher boost = less time.

[justin_g]

Guppy, what exactly are you getting at?

"Max. Climbing" is just a power rating, like this:

Max. Climbing(UK) = Military power(US) = Climb & Combat(DE)

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Nashwan
Oh, certainly much less at climbing power, about 3650 ft/min for the Australian test of the Spitfire VIII.

This would suggest it was somewhat higher for an VIII, even at 18lbs


http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit8.html

You guys should sneak a peek at the 109 thread.
Poor old Krusty, thought they were gonna string him up for daring to suggest they perk a 452mph 109-K4

From what I 've seen gonna spend our time chasing them all over the MA hoping they turn. this isn't the complete list being suggested, and of course all free.
G6 - 385
G14 - 415
G14/AS - ???
K4 - 452
This is the best part of AH2, the hypocritical double standards.

[justin_g]

Uhm, you just linked to the same RAAF flight test Nashwan quoted...

[Enduro]

let's have this spit (XIX) just for the sake of going somewhere that no other sim manufacturer would have the guts to go...

no...seriously...

[Kev367th]

Lol if that was the case how about



120 delivered, if you count they strafed a midget submarine - they saw combat.

F.21 - A absolute beast. 455mph @ 26,500ft , 4x20mm lazers
Now that would be "Boldy Going'

[Enduro]

sounds good to me.  

[Kev367th]

Lol I wish.
IF it ever showed up would be more expensive that a Tempest.

Plus it would cost me a fortune taking the HTC staff out and getting them drunk as a thankyou

Funny thing is if the war had lasted another 6 months or so we might have got it.
3000 were ordered, cancelled at the end of the war after 120 were delivered.

[Enduro]

maybe, after the game is finished , HTC will create a "dreamer's" arena where we can be dweebs in really, really fast rides.  naw, that would take their attention away from Aces High - Vietnam.  nevermind.  

[Bronk]

Krusty,
I realy didn't intend it to be a personal attack . I wanted to poke at the whiners before they started to whine. Your opinion is fine with me but i disagree strongly. The XVI at 25lbs boost will still be some 20+ mph slower with the 5 min of boost. Like you said get in a faster plane and shoot it down whats the problem ? What i would like to see is HTC put it in the MA plane set for say 2 months . Then make a decision on if it should be perked or not . Just for the record I am fine with the way the new perk costs are now except for the Ta 152 . This plane has very little use in the MA and should free imho .
Once again Krusty I appologise if you took this as a personal  shot at you . This was not my intention.


Bronk


P.S.  The MA has no balance it's controled chaos at all times. Thats the best descripiton for it I'd say.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Thats the one thing I have never understood -
Get a good performing Spit we have to perk it, yet other good performers go untouched ??????????

What is it? Spit considered just so damn good it has to be perked?

If the Spit VIII is at 18lbs, the Spit XVI must be at 25lbs.

Maybe it`s not about performance, but the minimal number of Spit IXs running at +25lbs most of the time.

According the Neil Stirling, there were only 2-3 Sqns running at +25 lbs during 1944, out of 37. Less than 10%... There were no XVI sqns, of course. To be honest, I thought to be a lot more around but there wasn`t.

+25lbs was not introduced in numbers until the beginnnig of 1945, by 25 Sqns - about half or less the total number of Merlin 66 engines Spitfires. I remember Kev arguing in another thread arguing that planes with so late introduction and such small numbers should not be included at all. He should apply this  to the Spitfire as well, or not to any plane. Asking for the highest performing variants of your favourite type and trying to deprieve others from theirs at the same time is not very tasteful.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Kev367th
No the LF XVI at 18lbs boost is NOT 1944, more accurately its a 1943 Spit LF IX. Spits ran 18lbs boost starting with the Merlin 66 in 1943.

[/B]

You accuse others with ignorance on Spitfire history, but you yourself display the finest examples of it.

NO, you are wrong, it appears 95% the MkIXs did only run at +18 lbs in 1944. Yes, you are half right, +18 lbs Spit9s were around from beginning 1943, in small numbers, with 4 MkV being around for every MkIX.

Not aimed specifically at you Wotan, but as a general comment on the whole 1944 Spit/190/109 situation which is totally one-sided as it stands, and would still be if the 16 comes in at 18lbs. [/B]

Hate to break your heart, but it WAS one sided historically. In early 1944, the MW50 and large supercharger 109Gs appeared in LARGE numbers. They were faster at altitude, and they were typical.

+25 lbs Spits also appeared, and in fact the +25lbs IX and the MW50 using 109G-14 are VERY close to each other in performance, the difference being the old story, the RAF only having 2-3 Sqds of the new planes, while G-14s and G-14/AS were literally flooding the battlefield and soon replacing older models.

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Krutsy - Well hopefully we'll get another source of data for it.
I have sent emails all over the place asking for perfromance data, hopefully I'll get something.
5700fpm seems a little excessive/unbelievable, I didn't want the 25lbs for the climb, but for the extra 24mph.

The 5700 fpm data at +25lbs is believable, if you know how it was arrived.
The 5700 fpm was measured in Spit IX test and noted for the VIII when the coolant radiator flaps were overridden and force-closed. With the standard way of measuring climb rate in other spitfire tests, with the radiators open, they measured 5080 fpm, a believable figure compared to the 4650 fpm measured under similiar conditions but at +18 lbs boost at SL.

Force-closing the rads during the test of course reduced drag and increased performance, but was highly theoretical, given that the radiator flaps were automatically operated and the pilot could not set them manuall on the MkIX/XVI - they would open very soon after the temperature started to rise to compensate (they were thermostatically controlled). Hence why the RAF always measured ROC with open radiators, with the exception of these tests.

For those who think that the XVI is not needed at all-
1) Was used by the 2TAF - good for D-Day, late was scenarios.[/B]

Err, the production of the XVI started a whole 3 months AFTER D-Day...

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Err, the production of the XVI started a whole 3 months AFTER D-Day...

Well, according to Spitfire: The History Castle Bromwich had them in production starting in June, 1944 and a single Mk XVI in May on an  earlier order.

That said, they clearly didn't serve over tje D-Day beaches.


And that said, the Mk XVI is just a LF.Mk IXe using an American built engine so it is fine to use it in place of the LF.Mk IXe Spits that did server over the beaches.

[Kurfürst]

IMHO, the best solution would be breaking down into types :

*LF MkIXc, +18 lbs, normal wings representing the most common type and boost and guns from ealry 1943 to end of 1944.

*LF  MkXVIe, +25 lbs, clipped wings representing the few  upboosted of 1944, and the major number of upboosted ones of 1945, the stronger armament and also giving the option of clipped wings. Bubblecanopy too, perhaps, but afaik it was really-really late, March 1945 or something, so not very representative of the IX/XVI...