Pyro

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Wotan
1940 - Spit I (+12lbs boost as of March 1940. All Merlin III fitted with C.P props by August 1940)
1940 - 109E-4 (May 1940, Also most of the earlier Emils were upgraded to the E-4 standard during the summer of 1940)

1941 - Spit Vb (12 Ibs, February 1941. 2 SQN The British Fighter Since 1912. Mason)
1941 - 109F-4 (1.3ata, the first F-4s reached the front line units in June 1941. Prien & Rodeike)

1942 - Spit F IX (May 1942. 81 SQN The British Fighter Since 1912 Mason)
1942 - 109G-2 ( June 1942. The first units, III/JG 52 and I/JG 54, received their G-2s in June 1942. The first loss reports are from July 7th and 8th 1942. Prien & Rodeike)

1943 - Spit LF VIII (?)
1943 - 109G-6 (G-6 Entered service and saw action with II/JG 53, II/JG 77, JG 27 and JG 51 in February 1943. Prien & Rodeike)

1944 - Spit LF XVI (18 lbs boost ?)
1944 - 109G-14 (G-14 entered service with II/JG 11 and Stab/JG 53 in July 1944)

Late 1944 - 109G-10/K-4 (October 1944 / K-4 Entered service with III/JG 4, Stab+I,II,III,IV/JG 27 and II/Jg 77 in October 1944. Prien & Rodeike, H. Valtonen)

Late 44 - Spit F XIV (21lbs boost ?)


For the 109s the best choice for a new variant would be a Bf 109G-14. About 5500 made (abt. 1000 of which were G-14/AS versions).

If they were to split the G-10/K-4 hybrid into actual variants (G-10 around 425 mph / K-4 452mph) then the G-10 could server as a sub for the G-6/AS and G-14/AS. If they model the K-4 based on C3 + MW50 at 1.98 ata then it should be perked (maybe a small perk anyway).

A few 109s that would be useful for scenarios / ToD would be the 109E-7 and 109F-2. However, these maybe a bit much given the work load.

The Spit fans will have to fill in the blanks above in regards to service entry dates. There's talk of adding a Seafire L.III @ 18 lbs boost as well. I am not sure where that plane would fit in...

The dates are service entry (just did by year and picking the most produced version of Spit).

Seafire L III would be Med/Far East.

If it helps
This is from talking to Pyro what he is planning, so fill in 109/190

1940 - Spit I 12lbs / 109E4
1941 - Spit Vb 12lbs / 109F4 + ?
1942 - Spit F IX / 109G2 + ?
1943 - Spit VIII 18lbs (no real LW opponent so pick 2 historic opponents for LF IX) ?
1944 - Spit XVI 18lbs (poss 25lbs, more historic) /?
1945 - Spit XIV 21lbs (more XIVs in 45 with 21lb than 1944) / ?

These are the most produced Mks for each year, instead of the lets have Vb, Vc, XII etc.

[Karnak]

Half a dozen?

I can think of two unperked allied fighters than can outrun the 109G-10 at SL, the La-7 and Typhoon.  At high alt only the P-47N can out run it.  Even the perked F4U-4 and Spitfire Mk XIV can't out run it.

[Wotan]

A couple of other things to note...

Remove the gondola option for the 109F-4. These were never used operationallly.

Remove or restrict the 3cm option for the G-6. It would remain an option for the G-14 (if AH gets one) and the G-10. K-4 had 3cm only...

Butched posted the following on his AAW2 forum

G-6/U4
Produced 1943 : 181
01/1944 : 119
02/1944 : 51
03/1944 : 303
04/1944 : 404
05/1944 : 118
06/1944 : 144
07/1944 : 240
08/1944 : 49
09/1944 : 55
10/1944 : 14

Total G-6/U4 production = 1678

Sum G-6/U4 = 1678, which would be 14% out of the ca.12.000 produced

[1K3]

Im still not sure which spit 8 are we gonna get

Did pyro said clipped or full wing?


(Comment: pls let it be clipped wing so it can play with Ki-84s and 109s and 190s fairly:))

[Karnak]

Wotan,

Pyro mentioned in another thread that the Bf109G-10 is being removed from the 109 lineup.

I'd bet this means a Bf109K-4 and Bf109G-14 will be in the lineup.

Originally posted by 1K3
Im still not sure which spit 8 are we gonna get

Did pyro said clipped or full wing?


(Comment: pls let it be clipped wing so it can play with Ki-84s and 109s and 190s fairly:))

I doubt it would be clipped as very few VIIIs were.  I would not want it clipped if it were my choice. Keeping it full span helps differentiate it from the XVI.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by 1K3
Im still not sure which spit 8 are we gonna get

Did pyro said clipped or full wing?


(Comment: pls let it be clipped wing so it can play with Ki-84s and 109s and 190s fairly:))

There were very few clipped VIIIs, none in the Pacific that I've ever seen.  The clipped VIIIs I've seen images of are all from the MTO.

Better to go full span for the  LFVIII, in particular since the LFXVIe is a clipped Spit.

Dan/CorkyJr

[Wotan]

The dates are service entry (just did by year and picking the most produced version of Spit).

Seafire L III would be Med/Far East.

If it helps
This is from talking to Pyro what he is planning, so fill in 109/190

1940 - Spit I 12lbs / 109E4
1941 - Spit Vb 12lbs / 109F4 + ?
1942 - Spit F IX / 109G2 + ?
1943 - Spit VIII 18lbs (no real LW opponent so pick 2 historic opponents for LF IX) ?
1944 - Spit XVI 18lbs (poss 25lbs, more historic) /?
1945 - Spit XIV 21lbs (more XIVs in 45 with 21lb than 1944) / ?

These are the most produced Mks for each year, instead of the lets have Vb, Vc, XII etc.

It doesn't really matter if its sevice dates, or or most produced during a given year, or even if the VIII's real opponent was the G-14.

What it does is show that by year there is a method by which you could match planes up. I will say that not every planes needs to be 'matched up' but for the sake of discussion the info I provided gives a general outline for how things will 'layout' should HTC follow along those lines.

Also forget '45, with in the context of this discussion. There are no '45 aircraft (less the C3 + MW50, 1.98 ata K-4, which AH wont see anyway).

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Karnak
Half a dozen?

I can think of two unperked allied fighters than can outrun the 109G-10 at SL, the La-7 and Typhoon.  At high alt only the P-47N can out run it.  Even the perked F4U-4 and Spitfire Mk XIV can't out run it.

Yup and thereby hangs the whole problem.

At the alts where a typical MA furball takes place the Spit XIV is no more of a threat than the D9, G10, La7, Tiffy, Pony.

So if the Spit XIV deserves a light perk for its alt performance and climb rate in the MA, then surely at least whatever replaces the G10 will get similar treatment.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Wotan
It doesn't really matter if its sevice dates, or or most produced during a given year, or even if the VIII's real opponent was the G-14.

What it does is show that by year there is a method by which you could match planes up. I will say that not every planes needs to be 'matched up' but for the sake of discussion the info I provided gives a general outline for how things will 'layout' should HTC follow along those lines.

Also forget '45, with in the context of this discussion. There are no '45 aircraft (less the C3 + MW50, 1.98 ata K-4, which AH wont see anyway).

Actaully if you think about TOD, I suspect you'll find that he IS looking for a historical matchup.
Pyro also mentioned use in scenarios and the CT, so historical matchups are more likely to appear than a non historic one I would guess.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Kev367th
At the alts where a typical MA furball takes place the Spit XIV is no more of a threat than the D9, G10, La7, Tiffy, Pony.

That isn't really true.  The Spit XIV is better able to capitalize on any error the enemy makes.  It's manueverablity coupled with it's sheer power give it a combination of options not available to those others.

[Wotan]

Pyro mentioned in another thread that the Bf109G-10 is being removed from the 109 lineup.

I would ask, why remove it?

Just re-do, re-vamp its FM / performance and keep it in the set. (425mph verses 452mph):

G-6 - 385 mph
G-14 - 410 mph
G-10 - 425 mph
K-4 452 mph (perked?)

In this case it you could use the same model for the K-4 - G-10 adjust the FM/Performance and load out options.

Seems an easy fix...

With the G-14 you could basically use the the G-6 model they currently have. Again its just a different skin with adjustments to the FM/performance (and maybe with load out should the 3cm option for the G-6 get dropped...).

The 109s, at least from this layman's point of view, won't require that much more work to get a good line up...

YMMV

[Kev367th]

Wonder if they'll remove the TA-152?

I changed my underwear more times (almost) than the amount of them that got to see service (70 ish?).

Wotan - Of course you can match them up. The usual excuse of you cant always do that is used to try and justify multiple variants wanted for the same year, or people wanting some of the more exotic aircraft.

I'm sure a lot of the Spit fans would have liked exotic Spits like the XII, HF VII etc but they were rare, (even then more produced that the TA-152) and we stayed realistic.
Hell I would have loved to have the Spit XII and argued for it in the Spit threads, in the end I saw sense.
Thats also why we suggested the Vb instead of the Vc for 1941.

After speaking to Pyro I finished with the impression he is a level headed guy, (hence no immediate Spit 16 @ 25 boost). I'm sure if you can get together and post a REALISTIC historical matchup for his Spit lineup youll get it.
Probably guarentee one thing - if he doesnt think it will get used in a scenario/CT/TOD, you won't get it ,as he mentioned them numerous times during our talk.

[1K3]

Ok... (hold your breath!:))



(from top to bottom)

Spitfire Mk. Ia
Spitfire F Mk. Vb
Spitfire F Mk. IXc
Spitfire F Mk. VIIIc
Spitfire L.F. Mk. XVIe
Spitfire F Mk. XIVe

imo Spitfire designations are complicated... and annoying!:D

[Guppy35]

Close!  There was not IXc or VIIIc.

There was a Vc but the IX and VIII were not officially designated the same way.  The wing was referred to as the Universal Wing.  Of course on the Spit V the Universal wing was officially called the C wing

The E designation was added when they went to the 2 20mm and 2 50 cals.

Dan/CorkyJr

[tkor]

Originally posted by Kev367th
I changed my underwear more times (almost) than the amount of them that got to see service (70 ish?).

LOL, Kev, when did you start changing your underwear? J/K Bro,