Pyro

[Kev367th]

Thanks for the chat yesterday.
Great to see the Spit 14 reduced in cost. Seen more Spit 14 in the last 2 days than the last 2 years of AH.

You gave us a nice Spit lineup, what are your thoguhts on the 109/190 opponents for them?

1940 - Spit I / 109E
1941 - Spit Vb / ?
1942 - Spit F IX/ ?
1943 - Spit LF VIII (OK no real historic opponent, a free for the LW)
1944 - Spit LF XVI / ?
1945 - Spit F XIV / ?

[Karnak]

1940 - Spit I / 109E
1941 - Spit Vb / ?
1942 - Spit F IX / ?
1943 - Spit LF VIII / A6M2/A6M3/A6M5b/J2M3a/N1K1-J/N1K2-J/Ki-43/Ki-44/Ki-61/Ki-84
1944 - Spit LF XVI / ?
1945 - Spit F XIV / ?

[Krusty]

I don't see the need to break it down only by year, as some 109s flew for well over a year. The E-3/4 flew for a relatively short period of time, but it is essential as an important variant. Consider in '41 you had both the F4 adn the E7. And in 42 you still had the F4 and the E7. And in 43 you got heavier better armed 109s in simultaneous development (basically our G-6 now). The G10 (k4) we have would be a late 44 model, but that doesn't mean the G6 wasn't flying up til '44.

So I don't see why you have to base it solely on year. That's misleading, as the E-7, which is a '41 plane, served into late '42, see what I mean?

I'd rather see important marks, even if the years aren't all filled. Even if some years are close to each other.

[Kev367th]

Yeah I knew the Ki's etc for the VIII, interested more in the historical opponents for the rest.
Bearing in mind TOD, so this is most likely what we'll get.
So -
Find a historic opponent and fill in the ? marks.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Karnak
1943 - Spit LF VIII / A6M2/A6M3/A6M5b/J2M3a/N1K1-J/N1K2-J/Ki-43/Ki-44/Ki-61/Ki-84

Karnak you IJA/IJN junky, you

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Krusty
I don't see the need to break it down only by year, as some 109s flew for well over a year. The E-3/4 flew for a relatively short period of time, but it is essential as an important variant. Consider in '41 you had both the F4 adn the E7. And in 42 you still had the F4 and the E7. And in 43 you got heavier better armed 109s in simultaneous development (basically our G-6 now). The G10 (k4) we have would be a late 44 model, but that doesn't mean the G6 wasn't flying up til '44.

So I don't see why you have to base it solely on year. That's misleading, as the E-7, which is a '41 plane, served into late '42, see what I mean?

I'd rather see important marks, even if the years aren't all filled. Even if some years are close to each other.

Yes it is that simple -
eg The Mk V originally came out in 1941, but were still flying D-Day.

Your forgetting TOD - They are most likely looking for historical matchups.

From your point of view we should have started getting into Spit XII's etc, but in our Spit threads we concentrated on what was the most typical and most produced Spit for each year, and Pyro agreed.

Look on the brightside - you may get 6 x 109's and 5 x 190's (no 190 v Mk I Spit)

[Krusty]

1940 - Spit I / 109E
1941 - Spit Vb / 109 E-7/109 F-4 (Even Pyro's said the F-4 and SpitV are historic adversaries)
1942 - Spit F IX/ 109G-2 (not a real match but it was there) and 190A-5 (what the spit9 was made to combat)
1943 - Spit LF VIII / 109G-6 and 190a-8
1944 - Spit LF XVI / ? (Still don't know if we're getting this -- climb rate is through the roof, so I won't use it, possibly a new 109 like G14 or something between G6 and K4)
1945 - Spit F XIV / 109K-4 and 190d-9

EDIT: Removed quotes

[Kev367th]

Nice list Krusty, makes sense.
Yes we ARE getting the Spit XVI, at 18lbs initially, possibly upped to more realistic for the year 25lbs boost at a later date.

OK question on 1945?
If the Spit XIV perked, should the opponents be perked at a similar cost?

For the Mk VIII substitute an LF IX opponent, as it would be able to stand in for a 1943 LF IX

[Krusty]

Knowing how the 109s fly, and their relatively weak guns (and bad ammo load and general trajectory on the 30mm) I don't believe so. They're much MUCH less of a threat than the spit14.

P.S. I don't think anything will be perked in TOD. Just the MA. So when I say 109K4 is less of a threat than the spit14, I'm talking in the MA, not in team vs team warfare.

[Kev367th]

Even a light perk 5 or so?

Or do you want the late war speed monsters free of charge? remembering that in the MA the Spit 14 is nothing more that a fast Spit down down low where the fights takes place.

In which case theres a perfect reason to put the Mk XVI straight in at 25lbs boost.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Krusty
Knowing how the 109s fly, and their relatively weak guns (and bad ammo load and general trajectory on the 30mm) I don't believe so. They're much MUCH less of a threat than the spit14.

P.S. I don't think anything will be perked in TOD. Just the MA. So when I say 109K4 is less of a threat than the spit14, I'm talking in the MA, not in team vs team warfare.

But you are basing this on your opinion of the AH 109s right Krusty?  In your view they aren't performing like they should.

So because of that the Spits should be perked but not any comparable LW bird?

Right now the XIV, which got into combat a lot sooner then the D9, is perked but the D9 is not.

Does this make sense?  

It still comes down to the planes you like to fly aren't doing what you want them to do, so the guys who like to fly Spits get penalized because they like Spits which do more then you think they should do?

Dan/CorkyJr
Unperk em all

[Wotan]

1940 - Spit I (+12lbs boost as of March 1940. All Merlin III fitted with C.P props by August 1940)
1940 - 109E-4 (May 1940, Also most of the earlier Emils were upgraded to the E-4 standard during the summer of 1940)

1941 - Spit Vb (12 Ibs, February 1941. 2 SQN The British Fighter Since 1912. Mason)
1941 - 109F-4 (1.3ata, the first F-4s reached the front line units in June 1941. Prien & Rodeike)

1942 - Spit F IX (May 1942. 81 SQN The British Fighter Since 1912 Mason)
1942 - 109G-2 ( June 1942. The first units, III/JG 52 and I/JG 54, received their G-2s in June 1942. The first loss reports are from July 7th and 8th 1942. Prien & Rodeike)

1943 - Spit LF VIII (?)
1943 - 109G-6 (G-6 Entered service and saw action with II/JG 53, II/JG 77, JG 27 and JG 51 in February 1943. Prien & Rodeike)

1944 - Spit LF XVI (18 lbs boost ?)
1944 - 109G-14 (G-14 entered service with II/JG 11 and Stab/JG 53 in July 1944)

Late 1944 - Spit F XIV (21lbs boost ?)
Late 1944 - 109G-10/K-4 (October 1944 / K-4 Entered service with III/JG 4, Stab+I,II,III,IV/JG 27 and II/Jg 77 in October 1944. Prien & Rodeike, H. Valtonen)

For the 109s the best choice for a new variant would be a Bf 109G-14. About 5500 made (abt. 1000 of which were G-14/AS versions).

If they were to split the G-10/K-4 hybrid into actual variants (G-10 around 425 mph / K-4 452mph) then the G-10 could server as a sub for the G-6/AS and G-14/AS. If they model the K-4 based on C3 + MW50 at 1.98 ata then it should be perked (maybe a small perk anyway).

A few 109s that would be useful for scenarios / ToD would be the 109E-7 and 109F-2. However, these maybe a bit much given the work load.

The Spit fans will have to fill in the blanks above in regards to service entry dates. There's talk of adding a Seafire L.III @ 18 lbs boost as well. I am not sure where that plane would fit in...

[Wotan]

But you are basing this on your opinion of the AH 109s right Krusty? In your view they aren't performing like they should.

He just makes it up as he goes. When challenged to present facts he then uses the lame excuse 'can't a guy have an opinion'...

Just ignore it...

[Krusty]

I don't think you can perk on speed alone, except in the case of jets. The speed of the 109s is nowhere near the fastest in the game. Half a dozen allied planes outrun it easily. It's overall killing capability (and sometimes over-use) that dictates what should be perked, or at least the perk points of an aircraft. 109K4 may be relatively fast (but that's compared to spitfires, which are notoriously slow anyways). However it's still not very nimble and not very well armed, compared to standard 6x50cal and 2000 rounds for allied planes, and 2x20mm 250rounds & 4x303cal 1200rounds for most spits, it's got a mere 500 50cal and 60 30mm. So it can't kill nearly as much. The speed helps in certain areas, zooms, climbs, etc, but it still can't wing over inside a p51's turn radius, nor can it hope to out turn a spit. So you can see while it has some speed over the spitfires, it's still by no means a "monster". I'd respect it enough to be wary, but I think it'd be on even footing with most other planes in the game.

All opinion, mind you, and only time and arena logs will tell otherwise, but that's my take on it.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Wotan
He just makes it up as he goes. When challenged to present facts he then uses the lame excuse 'can't a guy have an opinion'...

Just ignore it...

Excuse me? Keep your flamebait to yourself, Wotan. You've been rather hostile and holier-than-thou to me, and without warrant.

"just ignore it" good advice. You're now on my ignore list.

Guppy:

"In your view they aren't performing like they should."

When have I said that? I think the 109s are pretty damn good as they are. Like I said if we get NO change at all with the 109s I'll still be happy. Anything else is icing on the cake.

I was basing that with my experience flying in the 109s and their average lethality with average pilots (using me as basis for the average pilot). They're a threat, but nowhere near as much of a threat as a spitfireXIV, lethality wise.

As for perking doras, I'll stay out of that. I really don't care. But consider that the dora has its drawbacks. It can't turn under 170mph without stalling horrible. It can't even compete against p51s, let alone super spits that climb better than p51s and turn much tighter, down to speeds of 120mph and lower.

Still nowhere near the threat an average pilot in a spit14 is. Also, if they're so much of a threat, why are they Run90s, instead of Fight-90s?