From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Maverick
Boroda.


No need for an apology from the crew and they did know what they had. It was necessary and those who died from it are no more dea than those who died from any other weapon. This is just a very graphic weapon that symbolizes the phrase that "war is hell".

If they knew what they drop - it indeed doesn't change anything, they had an order.

Some nations don't need such a "graphic" weapon to show this very simple and obvious thing...

In 1941 my Grandfather said that BM-13 "Katyusha" jet-mortar was a most horrible weapon invented my human kind... He was one of the first officers who studied it and used it at the front line. Unfortunately he was mistaken

[Boroda]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Bull**** boroda.  The alternative to dropping the bomb was to suffer millions of casualties on both sides invading japan.

And the word "Millions" is not an overstatement.

Good work Enola Gay.

There was no nessesity to invade Japan.

BTW, Soviet forces invaded Sothern Sakhalin and Kuril islands, and it didn't result in severe losses.

After USSR interfered and destroyed Japanese forces in Manchuria - there was no other chance for Japan other then surrender. They attempted to use USSR as a negotiator for surrender conditions since early 1945.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hangtime
doesn't matter WHAT anbody else thinks.

We understand it.

Originally posted by Hangtime
we did it, we'd do it again and we will if we're faced with a similar choice and a valid target.

There was no choice. Truman needed something to blackmail JVS in Potsdam. It was a real reason for 200000 civilians to be burnt alive.

And of your leaders will do it again - they are absolutely insane. Skydancer already said the real reason.

Originally posted by Hangtime
best the resta world understands THAT.. could care less if they like it or not.

It's up to you. Since 1947 you knew that "there is no secret of an atomic bomb". And in 1949 USSR didn't declare that we posess a Bomb, your recon planes discovered it 2 month after a first test explosion. USSR didn't need to blackmail anyone.

[Wotan]

Bull**** boroda. The alternative to dropping the bomb was to suffer millions of casualties on both sides invading japan.

And the word "Millions" is not an overstatement.

Sure the term 'millions' is an over statement. Its down right stupid propaganda as well.

The initial invasion of the southern Island of Japan involved only 800k troops.

The Main island invasion involved 1.1 million.

1.9 million troops, I will give you another 100k and make it 2 mil.

50% casualties? bull****....

So then where do the 'millions' come from?

Its made up as well...

The Japaneses were looking for a way out already. They sent a message through their people in Moscow that they would be willing to surrender as long as the Emperor could retain his powers.

After the bomb the Emperor was still their.

Once the Soviets over ran Manchuria that was left of the Japanese economy would have collapsed.

Did it save lives? Maybe but who knows... You certainly can't make any claim as to 'how many'.

Boroda is correct however that one of the reason argued for dropping the bomb was to demonstrate its destructive power to the Soviets to improve US negotiating position in Potsdam. This isn't made up stuff like your claim of 'millions' it's historical fact.

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Skydancer
"I think the most telling aspect is we used them when they were necesary but, havnt used them again in anger since"

Good point though the fact the Russians had em might have something to do with this?

Nope. Unfortunately Boroda missed the point.. if we were just evil bastards we woulda just taken over the world in 1945-1946.

Fact is, if Stalin had the bomb, he'd a used it. Fact is, if Hitler had it, he'd a used it.

Any guesses as to where either of them would have stopped?

Now, following that question Boroda's answer would be 'we didn't need it, we already beat the germans, and were in the process of beating the japanese when you stopped the war by your cowardly use of this inhuman weapon'.

.. and then we'd just devolve into 5 pages of insults and propaganda rehash. Kinda pointless.

Reality is we used it to end one war, and then used the threat of using it to prevent the start of another.. and over the course of 50 years of toe to toe confontation on the world stage history bears out the veracity of the American Policy with regards to the use of Nuclear Weapons. If you use 'em, we'll vaporize you.. no mercy; no quarter, your existence as a nation will become a footnote in a history text under 'really dumb military ideas'.

The message remains the same, depsite the change of players at the table.. if any nation uses one, we'll likely declare that nation 'insane' and eradicate it. Yah; we may take some lumps.. at worst, we'll all be dead.. then it'll be up to the ailens to write our epitaph because this is certain..

there will be NOBODY left.

And therin lies the simplicty and beauty of non-proliferation and Mutually Assured Destruction. Bust the treaty, get nukes.. you get your cities programed into a target list. Use one, your cities vanish. *poof*.

Cruel.. but hey; it's worked for over 50 years. Pleasant? Nope. We've got Damocles' Sword dangling overhead every single second of every day.

Sleep Tight World.. the arrogant evil unpredictable nations with nukes are out there. Still. Watching. Waiting. Eyeballing the Button. Thinking about it.

Thank us later.

[Meatwad]

Did they know the power of the bomb or was it just said to  them "Heres a bomb, drop it here, here, or here."

[Hangtime]

The knew. In detail. Trained for it's delivery; were well informed of the power of the device, it's risks.. they knew. Willingly accepted the risks, did the mission.

That sez something about the determination of those men.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Nope. Unfortunately Boroda missed the point.. if we were just evil bastards we woulda just taken over the world in 1945-1946.

Hang, in April 1945 "allied" forces could be thrown back into the Atlantic on bayonets and courage, even without tanks and artillery. There was no way to win a war with USSR even when you planned to use 300+ atomic bombs, and you understand it.

Originally posted by Hangtime
Fact is, if Stalin had the bomb, he'd a used it. Fact is, if Hitler had it, he'd a used it

Any guesses as to where either of them would have stopped?

Stalin stopped at Elba river. After severely testing the strength of American troops, throwing them back like kids and then withdrawing and sending apologies. And it was 3 months before a first nuclear test.

Originally posted by Hangtime
Now, following that question Boroda's answer would be 'we didn't need it, we already beat the germans, and were in the process of beating the japanese when you stopped the war by your cowardly use of this inhuman weapon'.

It was not cowardice. It had a reason. You had to show something more then a report of an explosion in a desert "brighter then thousand suns". You showed it. Well done. A spectacular and educating experiment

Originally posted by Hangtime
.. and then we'd just devolve into 5 pages of insults and propaganda rehash. Kinda pointless.

Sorry, I just point at obvious things. In Soviet times official propaganda never spoke about a possibility of starting hostilities with "allies" in 1945, they only mentioned Patton reinforcing nazi troops in "allied" occupation zone.

Originally posted by Hangtime
Reality is we used it to end one war, and then used the threat of using it to prevent the start of another..

"Another" war was prevented by Soviet leadership. As I said above - "allies" didn'r have a sibgle chance against Soviet Army.  "Five of this Americans are not worth a single Russian" - a quote from a German Tiger company commander.

Originally posted by Hangtime
and over the course of 50 years of toe to toe confontation on the world stage history bears out the veracity of the American Policy with regards to the use of Nuclear Weapons. If you use 'em, we'll vaporize you.. no mercy; no quarter, your existence as a nation will become a footnote in a history text under 'really dumb military ideas'.

Hang. Please, get real. You don't have a monopoly since 1949. You'll be the first to get "vaporized" And your unique geographical position will not save you "(

Originally posted by Hangtime
The message remains the same, depsite the change of players at the table.. if any nation uses one, we'll likely declare that nation 'insane' and eradicate it. Yah; we may take some lumps.. at worst, we'll all be dead.. then it'll be up to the ailens to write our epitaph because this is certain...

Same thing about Russian Federaion now, with only difference: any nation starting an aggressive war against RF or our allies will face the nuclear threat. We can't afford a full-scale conventional war now, so we simply launch.

Originally posted by Hangtime
there will be NOBODY left.

Do you have the guts to do it fot Microsoft or Haliburton?...

Originally posted by Hangtime
And therin lies the simplicty and beauty of non-proliferation and Mutually Assured Destruction. Bust the treaty, get nukes.. you get your cities programed into a target list. Use one, your cities vanish. *poof*.

Any massive launch will result in a massive launch from RF and PRC. It' simple. You are unable to wave your nuclear mace since 1949.

Originally posted by Hangtime
Cruel.. but hey; it's worked for over 50 years. Pleasant? Nope. We've got Damocles' Sword dangling overhead every single second of every day.

Isn't it insane?... We have our nukes as a matter of survival of our nation, you confess that it's a matter of political blackmail... Do youreally believe what you said? If it's so, and some people at the top share your views - then something has to be done

Originally posted by Hangtime
Sleep Tight World.. the arrogant evil unpredictable nations with nukes are out there. Still. Watching. Waiting. Eyeballing the Button. Thinking about it.

Sleep. There are some nations that will prevent insane regimes from burning you alive.

Originally posted by Hangtime
Thank us later.

We already thank you for showing the nature of the things.

You can't force us to drink coke. We prefer tea and kvas.

Was my reply as pathetic as Hang's post?

[Suave]

B29s were allready doing as much damage with conventional fire bombs as they did with the A-bomb. They killed 100,000 in one night when they bombed tokyo. And they haven't bombed one of our harbours since.

I recommend watching "Fog of War" it's an interview of one of the men who helped plan US WWII bombing strategies. Robert McNamara.

[Gunslinger]

yea Suave what the hippie proponets don't realize were that causualty counts in both bombs were actually relativly low considering.  The firebombing of tokyo killed WAY more japs than both the bombs.

Then you consider an invasion.  I draws alot of paralels today that if emperor hadn't surrendered after the invasion or there was a military coup with no surrender the death toll would be in the millions.  Japan wouldnt even be close to being the same nation it is today.  There would be an insurgancy and an occupation that would make Iraq look like a police action.  

But of course all this is hindsite

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Boroda
Stalin stopped at Elba river. After severely testing the strength of American troops, throwing them back like kids and then withdrawing and sending apologies. And it was 3 months before a first nuclear test.

I am unfamiliar with any US/Soviet battle near the Elbe... do you have any details?  

What Army / divisions / generals were involved?

How many casualties?

this is what I know about the forces meeting at the Elbe

[Boroda]

Sorry, answering in a mode offered by Hang - I used a common legend/myth. never approved by Soviet propaganda, that first units that met Americans on Elbe attacked them and had to be literally pulled back by high command - they attacked US troops because they didn't speak Russian and had strange uniforms. Some versions said that this attacks were ordered from "above", to test American combat strength. No proof other then some vets telling "baika"s. But the quote from "Tiger" company commander is true.

[MiloMorai]

See Rule #5

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Boroda
Learn to fight first, then go to wars. Sorry.

So you're saying that the 25 or 30 million the Soviet Union lost in WW2 was due to them not knowing how to fight?

[Boroda]

See Rule #5