Author Topic: From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"  (Read 1412 times)

Offline Holden McGroin

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8591
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2005, 10:06:07 PM »
Only ten million then.

So you're saying that the slightly less than 10 million the Soviet Union lost in WW2 was due to them not knowing how to fight?:eek:

Quote
The whole "second front" in 1944 had one purpose: not to let USSR get the contol of the whole Europe and to get some profit on Soviet lives after the end was near and obvious.  


If that is so, why did Stalin push for the invasion of France at the Terhan Conference?
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2005, 10:07:27 PM »
Quote
Hang, in April 1945 "allied" forces could be thrown back into the Atlantic on bayonets and courage, even without tanks and artillery. There was no way to win a war with USSR even when you planned to use 300+ atomic bombs, and you understand it.


Fantasy. And another goofy empty commie boast. Your cities were inside our B-29 range.. your supply lines vulnerable, your navy almost non-existant. Frankly, you'd have been pretty much a push-over.

Quote
After severely testing the strength of American troops, throwing them back like kids and then withdrawing and sending apologies.


LOL. Fantasy. Another commie boast.

Quote
Hang. Please, get real. You don't have a monopoly since 1949. You'll be the first to get "vaporized"  And your unique geographical position will not save you "


Yep in 1949 we had 200+ Nuclear Bombs. You had 1. Get real? LOL!! In 1950 we 298, you had 5. We had a fleet of B-36's, you had a copy of the B-29.. and still not the range to reach us, penetrate our air defenses.  So how were you gonna deliver yer 5 bombs? US Mail?

Quote
Isn't it insane?... We have our nukes as a matter of survival of our nation, you confess that it's a matter of political blackmail... Do youreally believe what you said? If it's so, and some people at the top share your views - then something has to be done


Boroda.. when will it seep thru that vodka soaked and commie programed mind.. We were not interested in 'attack'.. if we were, we would have in 1950. History does not lie.. why do you insist on the 'national survival' line as a reason for your governments twisted torment of it's people fo 50 years?

 
Quote
"Another" war was prevented by Soviet leadership. As I said above - "allies" didn'r have a sibgle chance against Soviet Army. "Five of this Americans are not worth a single Russian" - a quote from a German Tiger company commander.


Ah. I see.. based on a defeated officers commentary, (and Kruschev's shoe) you've explained the superiority of Russian Soldat. You might wanna check with the Chinese at Chosin for a second opinion.

Quote
You can't force us to drink coke. We prefer tea and kvas.


Which explains the huge popularity of Coke and Levi's in your country.. and the absolute absence of any kind of Russian products in America. Be sure and get back to me when your forigen aid and food or Russian Bank loans to US busineses reaches the one freaking dollar mark.

LOL.. pitiful nyekulturny arguments, Boroda. Really, I expected (even hoped) for better. Maybe next time, enh?
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Russian

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2992
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2005, 10:12:03 PM »
This is so entertaining, both of you. Please do continue.  :aok

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2005, 10:22:19 PM »
I already set a 5 page limit. ;)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6864
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2005, 10:26:43 PM »
See Rule #4, #5
« Last Edit: August 05, 2005, 07:14:53 AM by Skuzzy »

Offline MP3

  • Military Police
  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com/
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2005, 11:27:15 PM »
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.

5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.

Offline Yeager

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10167
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2005, 11:44:56 PM »
See Rule #2
« Last Edit: August 05, 2005, 07:15:35 AM by Skuzzy »
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22408
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2005, 11:49:25 PM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: August 05, 2005, 07:16:13 AM by Skuzzy »
-=Most Wanted=-

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22408
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2005, 11:52:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
My dear distant friend... Out of 20-27 millions of victims only less then 10 millions were military losses. Soviet/German military casualities ratio is something like 1.5/1 or even smaller. Mostly because of a catastrophe of 1941.

Two SS tank divisions crushed an "allied" front in Ardennes, and your leaders asked Stalin to start a Visla-Oder operation earlier then planned to save your "glorious troops" from a complete defeat. Two panzer divisions... And it costed USSR several hundreed thousands unnessesary casualities... Just to save some anglo-saxons who can't fight without toilet paper and chewing gum... Sorry.

The whole "second front" in 1944 had one purpose: not to let USSR get the contol of the whole Europe and to get some profit on Soviet lives after the end was near and obvious.


Remember Katyn!

Karaya
-=Most Wanted=-

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2005, 12:13:28 AM »
What obligation did the Soviets have to enter into a war with Japan prior to the agreements at Yalta?

Absolutely none...

The Soviets and Japan were not at war...

The Soviet invasion of Manchuria was one of the largest and most impressive logistical problems faced by any side during the War.

They turned right around from capturing Berlin to over running Manchuria. Manchuria wasn't a small back water it was the heart of the Japanese war economy at that point.

So the Soviets didn't need to do 'a  damn thing' to help with Japan. It wasn't their war. It was at the insistence of the western Allies that they declared war on  Japan any way. No nation could have over come the logistical problem the Soviets did in that short of time.

You can rationalize dropping the bombs any way you want. But here is no evidence that they 'saved millions'. Japan was putting out peace feelers and a full invasion of Japan would not have been necessary even with out the bomb.

Part of the logic in the argument for dropping the bomb was to demonstrate the bomb to the world (i.e. Soviets) and to improve the Western allies position at Potsdam.

Miko posted this some time ago:

Admiral William D. Leahy – 5 star admiral, president of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff and the combined American-British Chiefs of Staff, and chief of staff to the commander-in-chief of the army and navy from 1942–1945 (Roosevelt) and 1945–1949 (Truman):
 
Quote
"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . . My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted the ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."


Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet, quoted by his widow:

Quote
". . . I felt that it was an unnecessary loss of civilian life. . . . We had them beaten. They hadn't enough food, they couldn't do anything." And – E. B. Potter, naval historian wrote: "Nimitz considered the atomic bomb somehow indecent, certainly not a legitimate form of warfare."
 

Admiral William "Bull" Halsey, commander of the Third Fleet:

Quote
"The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment. . . . It was a mistake ever to drop it . . . (the scientists) had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it. . . . It killed a lot of Japs, but the Japs had put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before."


Rear Admiral Richard Byrd:

Quote
"Especially it is good to see the truth told about the last days of the war with Japan. . . . I was with the Fleet during that period; and every officer in the Fleet knew that Japan would eventually capitulate from . . . the tight blockade."
 

Rear Admiral Lewis L. Strauss, special assistant to the Secretary of the Navy:
 
Quote
"I, too, felt strongly that it was a mistake to drop the atom bombs, especially without warning." [The atomic bomb] "was not necessary to bring the war to a successful conclusion . . . it was clear to a number of people . . . that the war was very nearly over. The Japanese were nearly ready to capitulate . . . it was a sin – to use a good word – [a word that] should be used more often – to kill non-combatants. . . ."


Major General Curtis E. LeMay, US Army Air Forces (at a press conference, September 1945):

Quote
"The war would have been over in two weeks without the Russians entering and without the atomic bomb . . . the atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all."


Major General Claire Chennault, founder of the Flying Tigers, and former US Army Air Forces commander in China:

Quote
"Russia's entry into the Japanese war was the decisive factor in speeding its end and would have been so even if no atomic bombs had been dropped..."
 

Henry H. "Hap" Arnold, Commanding General of the US Army Air Forces:
 
Quote
". . . [F]rom the Japanese standpoint the atomic bomb was really a way out. The Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell. . . ."


Lieutenant General Ira C. Eaker, Arnold's deputy:
 
Quote
"Arnold's view was that it (dropping the atomic bomb) was unnecessary. He said that he knew that the Japanese wanted peace. There were political implications in the decision and Arnold did not feel it was the military's job to question it. . . . I knew nobody in the high echelons of the Army Air Force who had any question about having to invade Japan."


Arnold, quoted by Eaker:
 
Quote
"When the question comes up of whether we use the atomic bomb or not, my view is that the Air Force will not oppose the use of the bomb, and they will deliver it effectively if the Commander in Chief decides to use it. But it is not necessary to use it in order to conquer the Japanese without the necessity of a land invasion."


General George C. Kenney, commander of Army Air Force units in the Southwest Pacific, when asked whether using the atomic bomb had been a wise decision:
 
Quote
"No! I think we had the Japs licked anyhow. I think they would have quit probably within a week or so of when they did quit."


W. Averill Harriman, in private notes after a dinner with General Carl "Tooey" Spaatz (commander in July 1945 of the Pacific-based US Army Strategic Air Forces), and Spaatz's one-time deputy commanding general in Europe, Frederick L. Anderson:

Quote
"...Both felt Japan would surrender without use of the bomb, and neither knew why a second bomb was used."


General Dwight D. Eisenhower:

Quote
"I voiced to him [Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson] my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was at that very moment seeking some way to surrender with a minimum of loss of 'face'. . . . It wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."
 

former President Herbert Hoover:
 
Quote
"I told MacArthur of my memorandum of mid-May 1945 to Truman, that peace could be had with Japan by which our major objectives would be accomplished. MacArthur said that was correct and that we would have avoided all of the losses, the Atomic bomb, and the entry of Russia into Manchuria."


Richard M. Nixon:
 
Quote
"MacArthur once spoke to me very eloquently about it. . . . He thought it a tragedy that the Bomb was ever exploded. MacArthur believed that the same restrictions ought to apply to atomic weapons as to conventional weapons, that the military objective should always be to limit damage to noncombatants. . . . MacArthur, you see, was a soldier. He believed in using force only against military targets, and that is why the nuclear thing turned him off, which I think speaks well of him.

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2005, 12:26:16 AM »
Yeah, but what do admirals and generals know about war...

;)
sand

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2005, 12:28:23 AM »
Apparently not as much as the BBS generals...

Offline Holden McGroin

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8591
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2005, 12:29:58 AM »
a conference to discuss pre-invasion casualties was held at the White House on June 18, 1945, between President Truman and the Joint Chiefs of Staff. From the Pacific, Gen. Douglas MacArthur submitted rather optimistic casualty estimates. This caused Adm. William D. Leahy, Truman's military advisor, to take charge of the session. Based on the experience at Iwo Jima and Okinawa, Leahy predicted that in an invasion of Japan, 30% to 35% of U.S. soldiers would be killed or wounded during the first 30 days. Truman obviously understood what Leahy said. The president remarked that the invasion would create another Okinawa from one end of Japan to the other. The Joint Chiefs of Staff agreed.

Suddenly, and only after being advised about the buildup of Japanese forces and fortifications by Magic intelligence, MacArthur medical staff revised its pre-invasion needs for hospital beds upwards by 300%. MacArthur's chief surgeon, Brig. Gen. Guy Denit, estimated that a 120-day campaign to invade and occupy only the island of Kyushu would result in 395,000 casualties.

Marshall then learned from the Magic Summaries, just before the Potsdam Conference convened on July 17, 1945, about behind-the-scenes negotiations between Japan and the Soviet Union. From June 3-14, 1945, Koki Hirota, a Japanese envoy with Emperor Hirohito's blessing, had met with the Russian ambassador to Tokyo to propose a new relationship between the two countries. Japan proposed to carve up Asia with the USSR . According to the Magic Diplomatic Summaries of July 3, 1945, Hirota told the Russian ambassador: "Japan will increase her naval strength in the future, and that, together with the Russian Army, would make a force unequaled in the world...." The Magic Summaries further revealed that throughout June and July 1945, Japan's militarist leaders were adamantly determined that they would never surrender unconditionally to the British and the Americans.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2005, 12:31:04 AM »
Yah know... the BBS generals have never lost a war. :D
sand

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
From the surviving crew "We have no regrets"
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2005, 01:00:08 AM »
Quote
Brig. Gen. Guy Denit, estimated that a 120-day campaign to invade and occupy only the island of Kyushu would result in 395,000 casualties.


The invasion plan for Kyushu was based on 800k troops...

50% casulties? In what campaign did the US face 50% casulties over all?

There weren't 30 - 35% US casulties at Okinawa. Total casulties were 72,000 total (dead, wounded and non-combat related) out of a force total of 300k (18,900 dead, 38,000 wounded and 33k non-combat casulties...)

Combat casulties totaled around 56900

There's no solid evidence that an invasion would have been inevitable. The assumption that dropping the bomb prevented invasion isn't 'solid'...

You haven't seen the 'Magic Summaries'. All the info in your post comes directly from a Wall Street Journal article...