Author Topic: NY being sued because of subway bag searches (Read 1718 times)

Ripsnort · « **Reply #45 on:** August 05, 2005, 09:21:28 AM »

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Originally posted by lazs2
I guess what it boils down to is that people who ride subways deserve anything that happens to em... being searched or blown up can't be much worse than using public transportation in the first place.

lazs

I used to feel the same way, until I rode on Puget Sounds new Light Rail transit system. Damn thats first class commuting!

Chairboy · « **Reply #46 on:** August 05, 2005, 09:23:33 AM »

I'd like to put a 'shout out' for the Washington DC rail system, top notch. It goes everywhere, it's clean and easy to use, absolutely tremendous.

Charon · « **Reply #47 on:** August 05, 2005, 09:36:11 AM »

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as i asked sandman and charon, and oters, what is their magical answer?

There is no magical answer. As stated I don't believe searching airline or public transportation passengers' bags crosses that line. However, the potential is always there to willingly exchange freedom for security - to take the easy way out. How about, at some point a few years down the road, when your dark skinned wife is detained for 48 hours because of a typographical discrepancy in her "papers" when boarding an airplane, and you are thankful it was cleared up so quickly? Of course you don’t discuss it much, because you never know who’s listening, especially now that your family is on the “class c” watch list. Couldn’t happen here? That's why you have to pay attention to these things because the Government likes nothing better than greater control and greater power, and will use any excuse to get it.

[BTW, previously the War on Drugs has been the most effective tool in reducing our individual freedoms. Bill Clinton used it to great effect, and was generally ignored while doing it because he was getting "tough on crime." That's my beef with him, not his "public" issues.]

Charon

Sandman · « **Reply #48 on:** August 05, 2005, 09:47:20 AM »

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Originally posted by Chairboy
I'd like to put a 'shout out' for the Washington DC rail system, top notch. It goes everywhere, it's clean and easy to use, absolutely tremendous.

Spot on. DC has the best public transportation I've seen in this country or elsewhere.

lazs2 · « **Reply #49 on:** August 05, 2005, 09:49:07 AM »

Like I said... if you depend on the government to get you around then you probly got to expect that they will treat you as they please.

lazs

Sandman · « **Reply #50 on:** August 05, 2005, 09:51:51 AM »

Well... in DC, the principle reason for using the Metro isn't transportation. It's parking. Riding the train is far cheaper than paying for a parking space.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #51 on:** August 05, 2005, 09:52:38 AM »

Sandy, can you define "unreasonable" for me please? TIA.

Chairboy · « **Reply #52 on:** August 05, 2005, 10:07:31 AM »

Rip, I'd like to take a stab at this.

The criteria for reasonable searches is traditionally linked with the concept of 'probable cause'. A police officer may search a person who they have probable cause to believe is committing a crime. For example, if the person is stopped right after a bank robbery has taken place in a car that matches description, and the right side of the person is covered with dye, then there's probable cause to believe that this is the person who has committed the crime.

The problem with the subway searches is that the presumption of guilt is in effect. Random people are being searched without probable cause being established. If, on the other hand, they searched people who were being surveilled because of suspected terrorism links, that might be different, but the stated actions by the police is that they are deliberately searching people who are not suspected of anything.

That meets the criteria of 'unreasonable search'.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #53 on:** August 05, 2005, 10:23:15 AM »

Good reply Chairboy, but I believe "unreasonable" is defined as a personal opinion as to what is reasonable, and what is not. In a time of war, our tolerance rises for what is defined as reasonable. What iss reasonable today was not reasonable yesteryear, due to the circumstances involving terrorism today.

My personal opinion is that it is in my best interest, as well as the nations, to be more tolerant of searches. I know it makes me feel safer than without it.

Thrawn · « **Reply #54 on:** August 05, 2005, 11:12:00 AM »

What if terrorists blow up a bomb in a mall, will you guys be okay with being searched there?

Some of you people are being terrorised, terrorised into giving away what terrorists want from you...your freedom.

This thread is so sad. It kind of reminds me of the gun debate.

Pro-gun people make the comment that doctors and cars kill more people than firearms. Well how many people have the terrorists killed in the US?

Toad · « **Reply #55 on:** August 05, 2005, 11:14:17 AM »

Thrawn, do you think there should be searches at airports? The searches that are already going on?

Shamus · « **Reply #56 on:** August 05, 2005, 11:29:38 AM »

Unreasonable is not an induviduals personal opinion as it pertains to the 4th amendment, Chairboy hit it on the head probable cause is a well defined legal definition.

Now we have procedures to suspend these rights, the government could institute martial law to combat serious threat to the country.

The part that I dont like is the little open ended nibbles at our rights.

When is the war on terror gonna be won Mr. government? "dont worry we'll let you know".

shamus

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #57 on:** August 05, 2005, 11:36:56 AM »

I still find it funny that the government is using fear of terrorist attacks from terrorists as a means to put bills, plans and other means of "security" into action.

Terrorists use fear to get what they want, ironically so does our government.
-SW

Ripsnort · « **Reply #58 on:** August 05, 2005, 12:37:09 PM »

If you want to read some severe historical improvisions of our 4th amendment I suggest you read some history of our past Former President Wilson. What we are doing today regarding random profiling and bag searches in our public transportation systems is minor in comparison.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #59 on:** August 05, 2005, 12:41:11 PM »

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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
I still find it funny that the government is using fear of terrorist attacks from terrorists as a means to put bills, plans and other means of "security" into action.

Terrorists use fear to get what they want, ironically so does our government.
-SW

Do you truly believe that terrorists think they'll win the public support with their ideology (closer to theology) by blowing stuff up? No, you're wrong. Terrorists use fear for a completely different reason.

The Gov't doesn't use fear to get civilians to follow an ideology or specific theology, nor does it practice and pressure the public to combine religion with politics. Quite the opposite, Gov't's job is to separate church from state, and that in itself is the biggest thorn in fanatical muslims ideology.