Author Topic: Lower standards?  (Read 639 times)

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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Lower standards?
« on: August 05, 2005, 04:42:21 PM »
This is a local argument, but I've seen it in more than one state.  Its just that it's hitting here now.

Hawai'i's Board of Education is considering lowering their academic standards because they increasingly cannot meet federal "No Child Left Behind" requirements.  Hawai'i has long held some of the highest academic standards in the country.  Nowadays though, children aren't passing the standardized state assessment test required to measure their education, resulting in fines for the school district and possibly having the feds come in and take over.  The BOE is considering changing the way the test is scored, more in line with the national average tests instead of the more rigorous standards set here.

My question is this.  They say its not a bad thing, because they are only lowering their standards to those of the SAT.  IMO, they are letting their students down.  Students here routinely score much higher on SAT standard tests than the Hawai'i Assessment test.  To me it just seems like a "feel good" measure designed to keep the feds off their backs and make the kids feel better.  You can call a moron a genius if you change the way you measure intelligence.  That doesnt make the moron smart.  As Abraham Lincoln once said, "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg."

Offline midnight Target

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Lower standards?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2005, 05:04:07 PM »
Maybe the test is flawed.

Offline lazs2

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Lower standards?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2005, 09:44:45 AM »
so long as we vote for democrats we will never have vouchers and continue to have the bloated and badly run monopoly on our future called the public school system.

lazs

Offline AWMac

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Lower standards?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2005, 10:05:08 AM »
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Offline rshubert

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Lower standards?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2005, 10:11:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Maybe the test is flawed.


O-kay, let's see:

State uses standardized testing.

Test scores are going down.

The test is obviously flawed.

Midnight, are you--by some chance--a member of any Teacher's Organization, or an academic of any kind?

Just askin', because that is almost an exact rendition of the standard NEA line.

Offline Gunslinger

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Lower standards?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2005, 10:31:39 AM »
no he probably means that it's flawed because there isn't an ebonics version of it.  or one written in the native languages of all who take it.

Offline Hangtime

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Lower standards?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2005, 10:59:08 AM »
the language of the nation is american english.

anything else distorts the fabric of 'NATION'. Commonality of cause, purpose, identity hinges on LANGUAGE. Anything less opens the door (wide) to enclave factionality. The folks in those enclaves do not view themseles as connected to or identify with the nation they live in... because there is no common language to bind them to the larger group.. the NATION in which they now live.

By sponsoring concessions for foriegn languages in our schools we're just hastening our own factional demise... the very thing that bound all the peoples of foriegn lands together in this nation, to become Americans was to learn the American Language, to become proficent in it, to identify themselves and their kids, PROUDLY, as Americans.

It's language!! The glue that bound all of us together to begin with.
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Offline Gunslinger

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Lower standards?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2005, 11:07:03 AM »
Star what I don't understand is first you say this:

Quote
Hawai'i has long held some of the highest academic standards in the country.


Then you mention this:

Quote
Nowadays though, children aren't passing the standardized state assessment test required to measure their education, resulting in fines for the school district and possibly having the feds come in and take over.


wich are completly polar opposites.  My question is what happened?  If the students were doing so well how come they are NOW being affected?  Is this an anti-Bush/no child left behind thing?

Offline rpm

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Lower standards?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2005, 11:58:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
so long as we vote for democrats we will never have vouchers and continue to have the bloated and badly run monopoly on our future called the public school system.

lazs
:lol  You think school vouchers will stop that?  What is to stop the dumbest gangbanger with a voucher from going to the same private school as your little Johnny? Better think that one thru.
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Offline StarOfAfrica2

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Lower standards?
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2005, 12:42:39 PM »
I dont know what the cause is.  I cant find a decent study anywhere that suggests one.  What I know is that before the NCLB act, Hawai'ian students scored much higher on SAT tests than the national average.  When NCLB came into effect, Hawai'i's standard assessments were designed to hit a higher bar than the SAT standards, intentionally.  They originally felt that the SAT standard wasnt really all that great, and if the local students were doing so much better already than the nation average, why not set the goal higher than that?  For the last 6 years straight though, students have failed to get a high enough percentage of scores on the assessment to meet federal standards.  As a result, they are talking about lowering their standards to those of the SAT, so their kids can look better on paper.

Personally I think all standardized tests are a load of hooey.  But the Govt. loves them.  It gives them numbers to throw out at people during press conferences, and to print in newspapers.

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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Lower standards?
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2005, 12:50:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
the language of the nation is american english.

anything else distorts the fabric of 'NATION'. Commonality of cause, purpose, identity hinges on LANGUAGE. Anything less opens the door (wide) to enclave factionality. The folks in those enclaves do not view themseles as connected to or identify with the nation they live in... because there is no common language to bind them to the larger group.. the NATION in which they now live.

By sponsoring concessions for foriegn languages in our schools we're just hastening our own factional demise... the very thing that bound all the peoples of foriegn lands together in this nation, to become Americans was to learn the American Language, to become proficent in it, to identify themselves and their kids, PROUDLY, as Americans.

It's language!! The glue that bound all of us together to begin with.



Hang, this has nothing to do with language.  Most of the kids speak better english than I do.  Certainly better than their parents.  Hawai'i is one of the most racially diverse states in America.  There are more languages spoken here than I can keep track of.  Nobody is teaching these kids in any language but English though.  If you ever want to see how the American "Melting Pot" SHOULD work, come visit.  You'd be surprised how well everyone gets along here, and how little fuss there is over integration.  Nobody has lost their ethnic roots, because they are too new for that.  But everyone is American, or wants to be.  I never hear anyone here say "Korean-American" or "African-American" or any other hyphenated form of American.  PC really isnt done here, except for the circles where those of us from the mainland US bring it.

Offline Gunslinger

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Lower standards?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2005, 12:52:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
I dont know what the cause is.  I cant find a decent study anywhere that suggests one.  What I know is that before the NCLB act, Hawai'ian students scored much higher on SAT tests than the national average.  When NCLB came into effect, Hawai'i's standard assessments were designed to hit a higher bar than the SAT standards, intentionally.  They originally felt that the SAT standard wasnt really all that great, and if the local students were doing so much better already than the nation average, why not set the goal higher than that?  For the last 6 years straight though, students have failed to get a high enough percentage of scores on the assessment to meet federal standards.  As a result, they are talking about lowering their standards to those of the SAT, so their kids can look better on paper.

Personally I think all standardized tests are a load of hooey.  But the Govt. loves them.  It gives them numbers to throw out at people during press conferences, and to print in newspapers.


well while I don't agree with standardized tests in their entirety it does hold schools and school districts accountable.  For years we've thrown BILLIONS of dollars at education to try and "fix" it and it hasn't worked.  I could site a few personal examples were alot these federal dollars were never spent on educating kids but hiring and expanding school administration (yea bigger beaurocracy fixes everything).

Personally like any kind of taxpayer funded aid I want to know if it is working.  If not find something that does.  For this you have to have some kind of yardstick to measure up.

I completly disagree with lowering standards to make happy feel good feelings.  I recently read an article about hte UK that thankfully for them failed were they wanted to make kids feel better about failing by getting rid of "F"s and replacing them with something totally stupid.

Offline Hangtime

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Lower standards?
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2005, 01:21:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Hang, this has nothing to do with language.  Most of the kids speak better english than I do.  Certainly better than their parents.  Hawai'i is one of the most racially diverse states in America.  There are more languages spoken here than I can keep track of.  Nobody is teaching these kids in any language but English though.  If you ever want to see how the American "Melting Pot" SHOULD work, come visit.  You'd be surprised how well everyone gets along here, and how little fuss there is over integration.  Nobody has lost their ethnic roots, because they are too new for that.  But everyone is American, or wants to be.  I never hear anyone here say "Korean-American" or "African-American" or any other hyphenated form of American.  PC really isnt done here, except for the circles where those of us from the mainland US bring it.


Awsome Star.. and good to hear. The 'balkinization' has started here on the mainland. :( Very bad, IMHO.

To what do attribute the drop in academic scoring? changes in the test, or changes in the classrooms?
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Offline Maverick

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Lower standards?
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2005, 08:00:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
:lol  You think school vouchers will stop that?  What is to stop the dumbest gangbanger with a voucher from going to the same private school as your little Johnny? Better think that one thru.


Not that I agree with Laz on this at all but I have found one minor flaw in your scenario. The private school doesn't HAVE to accept the little cretin like the public school does.
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Offline StarOfAfrica2

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Lower standards?
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2005, 08:04:48 PM »
Just my personal opinion, the entire education system in our country needs to be overhauled, from sea to shining sea.  The first problem is the education of the teachers themselves.  Its been a vicious circle.  Teachers were notoriously underpaid in general.  Back in the 80s many large school districts began noticing severe teacher shortages.  In the 90s it got worse, and I know many cities started shopping overseas for teachers in poorer countries that wanted to come here.  They would get them work visas, get them certified as teachers in whatever state, and put them to work.  Then they began trying to recruit people who had retired from other jobs, getting them to enroll in very basic courses to get certified, giving them "credits" for real life experience (such as business management for example) that could sub for some of the requirements to be certified.  Now, due to strikes and other tactics by teachers unions that have raised the pay and benefits of even starting teachers to the breaking point in many cases for public school districts, coupled with lower standards for certification, we have an entire educational system filled with teachers that cant cut it.  They dont really WANT to be teachers, they were recruited to the job in college with the promise of good pay and mandatory retirement benefits.  Half-prettythang teachers make for half-prettythang students.  

Now, we have a problem at school.  But the biggest problem is the attitude this country has gotten towards education in general.  While everyone agrees they want their kids to be smart, no one is willing to do any work to help.  The parents expect the school to do it all (until you get to something controversial like sex ed or something), and no one wants to get involved.  Thats a generalization I know, but I've seen it.  I went to college to be a teacher, and I bailed.  I could give noble reasons but the truth is its alot of work, and I didnt have the mentality, or the work ethic to be a good one.  At least I didnt think so then.  Course today I'd probably be fired in a heartbeat if I tried to be a teacher lol.  But my ex was a teacher.  I saw day in and day out the way the parents would dump their kids.  Heaven forbid one of them should get sick.  Oh, what, I have to give up my soaps and come get little Suzy?  But you have a nurse dont you?  (Really, this happened.  More than once.)  The more people I meet in this world, the more I appreciate the ones who still believe family = responsibility, and the more I get PO'd at the average population.  The old saying "Education starts at home" really is true.  I was never a great student, but I passed.  Because my parents made me do the work.  They checked up on me.  They forced me to sit at the table and asked me questions out of my textbooks.  They made sure if I had finished a chapter in math on mulitplication that I could multiply.  They discussed my report cards (and cussed too :) ) and they never once complained that it was a burden.  And they did that for my brothers too.  And funny enough, so did most of the other parents of the kids I knew in school.  

I have to say, I really am ashamed of my generation.  While the last one is still running things, we are too busy arguing over what shade of black the pot and kettle are, and are ignoring that both are overflowing and dinner is burning.  Instead of remembering what our parents taught us about how to weave things together in life, we are arguing over the merits of various nationalities of wool and which one is better suited to what, when all we need is a basic blanket.  Perfection is overrated.  I remember one of my neighbors growing up was a farmer, and I always loved riding on and driving the tractors.  It always amazed me how the rows could be so straight across an entire field.  There were little variations here and there, but mostly it was striaght.  I asked him once how you keep the rows straight when you are plowing or discing a field.  He said its easy, you just have to keep your eye on the other end of the field to stay straight.  If you only look directly in front of you, whatever direction you go looks straight because you can no longer see where you are going.  Sometimes I think "common sense" just isnt common anymore.  Now its rubbing off on OUR kids.  

Wow.  That was a rant.  Sorry.  Its just that to me, lowering the bar to make things look better is selling out.  Selling out and the kids are the ones being shortchanged by the deal.  As long as politicians run school districts, and we put more stock in numbers generated by a test that doesnt fairly test true intelligence OR knowledge, we are going to be running things based on irrellevant information.  Its like instrument flying a plane when the instruments give you data based on nothing real.  How long do you think you'll stay in the air that way?