Author Topic: Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:  (Read 5414 times)

Offline Kirin

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2001, 10:17:00 AM »
Straffo, why 2 Blastomeres? Why has the cell to divide first before you call it life?  ;)

Besides a spermatocyte lives as well - just as any other cell.

And what is the difference between a sperm/oocyte before and after they fusion? Their genome has been split before and united after...

And we spill millions of sperms day after day - well, some of us do...  :)

Reminds me off Monty Pythons "Meaning of life" - Every sperm is sacred...

---

Really amazing story. Intrauterin surgery shows us the frontiers of modern medicine. Fascintating indeed - sometimes scary. As science moves on we should not forget ethics - not everything that is possible is "good" by definition.

Does an embryo have the same rights as a fetus?

And besides how does a human being loose these rights?
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Offline jihad

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2001, 10:22:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by fscott:

The FBI monitors this forum for vigilantes.  I'd be careful.

Why do you think the FBI monitors this forum?

Sounds like acute paranoia to me.

Offline Ripsnort

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2001, 10:24:00 AM »
Very good questions Kirin, I am confused on this whole issue personally...I do wish the the abortion issue was out of the spot light of politics.  With modern medicine technologies comes forms of social decisions such as abortions, cloning, etc.

This thread should be not of 'who is right, and who is wrong', but something more of 'We should really contemplate every decision we make'.

Offline Eagler

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2001, 10:26:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak:
I think that a fair point to consider a fetus as human would be when its brain waves become coherent.

LOL
that means we have many "un"-humans running around  :)
Eagler
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Offline straffo

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2001, 10:29:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kirin:
Straffo, why 2 Blastomeres? Why has the cell to divide first before you call it life?     ;)

IMO until  there is no division it has failed ...    ;) and frankly a lonely spermatozoide or ovocyte won't create new life
by itself    :) (1/2 genome etc ... ya know that    :))

<edit> refreshed a bit my memory you are also right Kirin it start when the pronucléus male an female fusion (mix ?).
But isn't it nit picking ?   :)
<edit 2> in italic
[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: straffo ]

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: straffo ]

Offline Yoj

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2001, 10:37:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort:

This thread should be not of 'who is right, and who is wrong', but something more of 'We should really contemplate every decision we make'.

This would be a much better world if we did just that.  However, I think we'd need another species to take our place to get to that point.  As it is we just go (in the words of Chris Berman) "stumblin' bumblin' rumblin'" into the future and we get what we get.

- Yoj

Offline StSanta

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2001, 10:46:00 AM »
I find many parallells between this discussion and the discussion about the right to bear arms.

In both cases, those *defending* the right says it's a constitutional right.

In both cases, there's a load of semantics involved (armed militia vs armed citizen, fetus vs child).

About Roe vs Wade, I think one should consider the consideration made by the judges.

It is a constitutional matter, so let's see what someof their deliberations were

Justice Potter Stewart
"Several decisions of this Court make clear that freedom of personal choice in matters of marriage and family life is one of the liberties protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. . . . As recently as last Term, in Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405. S. 438, 453, we recognized "the right of the individual, married or single, to be free from unwarranted governmental intrusion into matters so fundamentally affecting a person as the decision whether to bear or beget a child..."Clearly, therefore, the Court today is correct in holding that the right asserted by Jane Roe is embraced within the personal liberty protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. "

There's precedent. Always nice to know.

Jusytice William Rehnquist:

"To reach its result the Court necessarily has had to find within the scope of the Fourteenth Amendment a right that was apparently completely unknown to the drafters of the Amendment. As early as 1821, the first state law dealing directly with abortion was enacted by the Connecticut Legislature. Conn. Stat., Tit. 22, §§ 14, 16. By the time of the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868,
there were at least 36 laws enacted by state or territorial legislatures limiting abortion.[] While many States have amended or updated their laws, 21 of the laws on the books in 1868 remain in effect today.[] Indeed, the Texas statute struck down today was, as the majority notes, first enacted in 1857 and "has remained substantially unchanged to the present time." Ante, at 119.

 "There apparently was no question concerning the validity of this provision or of any of the other state statutes when the Fourteenth
Amendment was adopted. The only conclusion possible from this history is that the drafters did not intend to have the Fourteenth Amendment withdraw from the States the power to legislate with respect to this matter.


Now we're moving into the intention of the Founding Fathers - much like in the right to bear arms discussion.

My understanding of past practice is that a statute found to be invalid as applied to a particular plaintiff, but not unconstitutional as a whole, is not simply "struck down" but is, instead, declared
unconstitutional as applied to the fact situation before the Court. Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U. S.356 (1886); Street v. New York, 394 U.S.576 (l969).

For all of the foregoing reasons, I respectfully dissent.


Well argued, I'd say...more to come in next post

Offline fscott

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2001, 10:50:00 AM »
Known fact that the flight simmer is a hostile, aggressive, anti-government persona. The FBI monitors all internet traffic with advanced sniffer progs.  I believe this is a key forum that they actually take time to read.  Many hostile people on board.

Offline StSanta

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2001, 10:55:00 AM »
Chief Justice Warren Burger

"I do not read the Court's holdings today as having the sweeping consequences attributed to them by the dissenting Justices; the dissenting views discount the reality that the vast majority of physicians observe the standards of their profession, and act only on the basis of carefully deliberated medical judgments relating to life and health. Plainly, the Court today rejects any claim that the Constitution requires abortions on demand."

Clear cut too.

Justice William Douglas:

"The Ninth Amendment obviously does not create federally enforceable rights. It merely says, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." But a catalogue of these rights includes customary, traditional, and time-honored rights, amenities, privileges, and immunities that come within the sweep of "the Blessings of Liberty" mentioned in the preamble to the Constitution. Many of them, in my view, come within the meaning of the term "liberty" as
used in the Fourteenth Amendment.
"First is the autonomous control over the development and expression of one's intellect, interests, tastes, and personality. . . .
"Second is freedom of choice in the basic decisions of one's life respecting marriage, divorce, procreation, contraception, and the
education and upbringing of children. . . .
"Third is the freedom to care for one's health and person, freedom from bodily restraint or compulsion, freedom to walk, stroll, or loaf. . . .
"[A] woman is free to make the basic decision whether to bear an unwanted child. Elaborate argument is hardly necessary to
demonstrate that childbirth may deprive a woman of her preferred lifestyle and force upon her a radically different and undesired
future. . . .


Seems the judge argues here that it's a constitutional matter more than a biological one.

"The vicissitudes of life produce pregnancies which may be unwanted, or which may impair "health" in the broad Vuitch sense of the term, or which may imperil the life of the mother, or which, in the full setting of the case, may create such suffering, dislocations, misery, or tragedy as to make an early abortion the only civilized step to take. .

They even comment on "life begins at conception. This should be of interest to Eagler and people with similar opinions:

'To say that life is present at conception is to give recognition to the potential, rather than the actual. The unfertilized egg has life, and if fertilized, it takes on human proportions. But the law deals in reality, not obscurity -- the known, rather than the unknown.
When sperm meets egg, life may eventually form, but quite often it does not. The law does not deal in speculation. The
phenomenon of life takes time to develop, and, until it is actually present, it cannot be destroyed. Its interruption prior to
formation would hardly be homicide, and as we have seen, society does not regard it as such. The rites of Baptism are not    performed and death certificates are not required when a miscarriage occurs. No prosecutor has ever returned a murder
indictment charging the taking of the life of a fetus. This would not be the case if the fetus constituted human life.'

"The protection of the fetus when it has acquired life is a legitimate concern of the State. . . . When life is present is a question we do not try to resolve. While basically a question for medical experts, as stated by Mr. Justice Clark, it is, of course, caught up in matters of religion and morality.

"In short, I agree with the Court that endangering the life of the woman or seriously and permanently injuring her health are standards too narrow for the right of privacy that is at stake."


Justice Byron White:

"With all due respect, I dissent. I find nothing in the language or history of the Constitution to support the Court's judgment. The Court simply fashions and announces a new constitutional right for pregnant mothers and, with scarcely any reason or authority for its action, invests that right with sufficient substance to override most existing state abortion statutes. . . .  As an exercise of raw judicial power, the Court perhaps has authority to do what it does today; but, in my view, its judgment is an improvident and extravagant exercise of the power of judicial review that the constitution extends to this Court.

Interesting!

In a sensitive area such as this, involving as it does issues over which reasonable men may easily and heatedly differ, I cannot accept the Court's exercise of its clear power of choice by interposing a constitutional barrier to state efforts to protect human life and by investing mothers and doctors with the constitutionally protected right to exterminate it. . . . ."

So, the judges disagree on what is human life.

It seems their discussion has been similar to the ones we've had here, exept they take a more constitutional approach to the matter.

Offline popeye

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2001, 10:59:00 AM »
For those who believe that "life begins at conception", and use birth control pills to prevent unwanted pregnancy, here's some interesting reading:
 

http://www.epm.org/bcp3300.html

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: popeye ]
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Offline Eagler

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2001, 11:05:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by fscott:
Known fact that the flight simmer is a hostile, aggressive, anti-government persona. The FBI monitors all internet traffic with advanced sniffer progs.  I believe this is a key forum that they actually take time to read.  Many hostile people on board.

That is why I give an online persona of a radical conservative while in RL I'm a bleedy heart lib which would make blur look like a Rush Limbaugh  :)

Eagler
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Offline Toad

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2001, 11:17:00 AM »
I think there is a very important aspect of the Constitution that we should all remember.

The basic idea is to keep government OUT OF the lives of individuals, not to provide legality to INVADE the lives of individuals.
 http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/constitutional.html


Specific provisions of the Constitution protect the rights of the individual from interference by the federal and state governments. The first ten amendments, called the Bill of Rights, were enacted in 1791 to provide a check on the new federal government.

See The Bill Of Rights: U.S. Const. amendments I - X. The first eight amendments provide protection of some of the most fundamental rights of the individual. For example, the First Amendment protects the fundamental civil rights of free speech, press and assembly, See, First Amendment Rights. Subsequent amendments have also broadened the protection afforded the rights of the individual. The 13th Amendment made slavery illegal. See U.S. Const. amend. XIII. The fourteenth Amendment prohibits the states from abridging "the rights and immunities" of any citizen without due process of law. See U.S. Const. amend. XIV. The "due process" clause of the 14th Amendment has been interpreted by the Supreme Court as affording citizens protection from interference by the state with almost all of the rights listed in the first eight amendments. The exceptions are the right to bear arms in the second Amendment, the 5th Amendment guarantee of a grand jury in criminal prosecutions, and the right to a jury for a civil trial under the seventh Amendment. The Fourteenth Amendment also guarantees the equal protection of the laws. See Equal Protection. The right to vote is protected by the 15th Amendment ("right to vote shall not be denied. . . on account of race."), the 19th Amendment (guaranteeing the right to vote regardless of sex), and the 24th Amendment (extending the right to vote to those who are 18 years of age). See U.S. Const. Amendments XV, XIX, and XXIV.
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Offline Ripsnort

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2001, 11:38:00 AM »
Good discussion guys, Santa: thks, that's interesting reading, same for Toad.

Offline buhdman

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2001, 11:54:00 AM »
Gee, it sure seems like there are an awful lot of "Gods" in this world.

At which point an egg and a sperm become a "viable human being" is irrelevant.  The real question is whether or not there is ever a real need for an abortion.

I happen to think that abortion is a terrible thing, but I am smart enough to realize that there are times when it is necessary in order to save the life of the mother or for other equally valid reasons.  In my opinion, it should never be thought of as a birth control option, but only as a surgical procedure that may be required for whatever good reason there is.  And as long as even one woman needs to have an abortion, it should be legal.

But remember, abortion is now and always shall be a choice.  There is nothing in this world that mandates that anyone should have an abortion against their will.

If you don't want one - don't have one.  It's that simple.

But if my wife or daughter needs one to save her life, you'd better not get in her way. Period.  Nothing gives you the right to sacrifice my daughter's life for your religious convictions.

Offline Eagler

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2001, 01:26:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by buhdman:
In my opinion, it should never be thought of as a birth control option,..

Not to beat a dead horse but you do realize this is exactly the reason the majority of abortions are committed.

Quote
But if my wife or daughter needs one to save her life, you'd better not get in her way. Period.  Nothing gives you the right to sacrifice my daughter's life for your religious convictions.

I'd never in a million years consider removing this option. Then it's a matter of life and death to the mother.
Problem is in today's society, abortion IS a method of birth control. If you don't believe that, you're fooling yourself.

Very valid & interesting point concerning birth control pills, a mini abortion (sometimes) without all the bells and whistles.

Just do what I did and get the big "V" !  :)

Last post on this thread, I think you all know where I stand on this one  :)

Eagler
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