Author Topic: Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:  (Read 5417 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2001, 10:51:00 AM »
Some of you guys just don't read well:
Original post:

 
Quote
"Controversial and sensitive subject matter, that can elevate our internal emotional feelings,
                     so, lets keep the discussion focusing on the subject, and not personal attacks on ones
                     opinions posted here.
[/i][/b]

Offline SOB

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2001, 11:07:00 AM »
Hblair, I'm sorry you had to go through such an experience and I'm sorry it turned out being a wrong move for you.  However, that doesn't mean that it's going to be the wrong move for everyone, and it doesn't make it right to take away their choice just because they may regret it later.

Wouldn't it be better for people with stories such as yourself to share these stories with women planning to get abortions and then still let them make their chioce?


SOB
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Offline Toad

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2001, 11:26:00 AM »
Well, SOB....

If I was given "CHOICE" I'd happily let them figure out what part of my tax goes to fund abortion. Use that instead to really support a child and I'll happily let them double that part of my taxes.

But, but, but... blubber, blubber... I don't have CHOICE!  ;) I HAVE to PAY! Unlike some other people who have "choice".  :p

Santa, I really didn't see much new ground in here. It still boils down to "when" doesn't it? (and I'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone, btw. But I'm sure you noticed that.)

At least it is a more diginified thread.

Adios, Amigos!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Sandman

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2001, 11:29:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hblair:
lol sandman. You cut and pasted the definition of "viable"   :p.

My point was that there are premature babies being born who live at much less gestation periods thanks to modern medicine.

Yes, but those babies are not viable in the strictest definition of the word. In any case, late-term abortions that occur during the third trimester are rare and are typically done when there is a threat to the mother's life. I doubt you'll find many cases where a woman has aborted late term simply because she decided she couldn't go through the rest of the pregnancy. Late-term abortions are extreme cases but somehow the right wing wants to use them as an argument.

Also... salute to Hblair for sharing... I've been where you were. It's a difficult decision. No doubt.
sand

Offline hblair

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2001, 12:45:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SOB:
Hblair, I'm sorry you had to go through such an experience and I'm sorry it turned out being a wrong move for you.  However, that doesn't mean that it's going to be the wrong move for everyone, and it doesn't make it right to take away their choice just because they may regret it later.

Wouldn't it be better for people with stories such as yourself to share these stories with women planning to get abortions and then still let them make their chioce?


SOB

Most women don't tend to listen to a guys abortion experiences. Can't say I blame them. Abortion is used as a contraception waaay too often. I knew a girl way back when who had had 2 abortions before she was 19. Didn't even know who the father of the second one was. But hey, she was exercising her <drumroll please> *Right to Choose* <American flag waves proudly in the background>

I'm glad I live in Alabama, and I bet you guys are too.
  :)

[ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]

Offline Yoj

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2001, 03:08:00 PM »
Face it - there will always things happening that we don't approve of.  There will always be cases of women using abortion as birth control - whether its legal or not.  The fact is, though, that for the vast majority of women it is a very difficult and extremely personal decision. Its not "Oops!  How inconvenient -  I'd better run out and get an abortion before the trip to Cancun".  (And, since there's been sharing here, yes I've been in the situation.  And I think now, as I thought then, that it was ultimately something SHE had to decide.  Not me, and CERTAINLY not the government).

Really, this discussion seems moot to me, since the real question is not whether there is or is not a right of choice but whether women will be sanctioned for exercising their choice.

As for whether one should have to pay for it in taxes, it reminds me of the people who wanted to not pay the part of their income tax that went to supporting the war in Vietnam.  They didn't get very far with that one, either.  Imagine the chaos it they let people chose what their taxes would or wouldn't pay for - not to mention the size of the bureaucracy needed to run the system.  You think we have big government now?

- Yoj

[ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: Yoj ]

Offline hblair

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2001, 03:25:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yoj:
The fact is, though, that for the vast majority of women it is a very difficult and extremely personal decision. Its not "Oops!  How inconvenient -  I'd better run out and get an abortion before the trip to Cancun".  

Where did ya get these statistics? I'm not being smart, just wondering.

[ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]

Offline SOB

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2001, 04:55:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hblair:
Abortion is used as a contraception waaay too often. I knew a girl way back when who had had 2 abortions before she was 19. Didn't even know who the father of the second one was. But hey, she was exercising her <drumroll please> *Right to Choose* <American flag waves proudly in the background>

Heh, I hear that, and I agree that a situation like that is pretty rediculous.  And it makes no sense to me at all, particularly now with the morning after pill legal and available.  However, I still feel that it's her right to choose to do that.  I'm not sure I'd care to know her, but it's her right.  Also, she's an extreme, and not every case is like hers.

It doesn't matter that you live in Alabama.  I'll see you at the con.  And since you've disagreed with me here, I'll have to beat you up!   ;)


SOB

BTW...Toad, I wasn't being sarcastic toward ya - I really do agree about the tax thing.  I was however, being sarcastic about another societal issue at the same time   :)
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Offline Yoj

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2001, 05:25:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hblair:


Where did ya get these statistics? I'm not being smart, just wondering.

[ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: hblair ]

I'll try to dig up the place I got it and post it.  

Still think about it - for even the most amoral and self-centered woman, of all the alternatives abortion is by far the most painful and expensive (except perhaps carrying to term). With all the available birth control alternatives, I can't imagine anyone chosing it as a preferred method.  Perhaps the VERY stupid or the insane, but I'm not sure what you can do about them, and they will always be a small minority, by definition.  For the rest, its a last resort, without even considering any of the almost unavoidable emotional considerations, the moral implications, and all the rest of the accompanying baggage.  Its just not an easy thing for most women to do.

- Yoj

Offline StSanta

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2001, 04:11:00 AM »
For those of you that are Christians, http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-bibleforbids.htm  is a good thing to check out. Personhood seems to be granted after 30 days. Or when the body somehow is injected with a soul.

Of course this is just your average religious assertion that has no base in science, but nevermind that.

Legally, personhood is granted at birth. One could of course change laws and it'd be quite interesting to have people sue their mother and father for inhaling second/third hand smoke and so forth  :). Or any other fantasy suit of your imagination.

Medically speaking, a fetus is not viable to life ex uterus until around week 23, and then only with *massive* medical intervention and a very high mortality rate, and empirical evidence shows that births this early result in a host of various sequela defects, such as with ligaments and so forth. There's a book by Langman (medical textbook) that deals with it more in depth if anyone is interested.

Generally speaking, major organs and so forth are in place around month 3 and spend the remaining time growing and obtaining functionality. I.e the definite transition from embryo to fetus has taken place around month 3.

I've had a brief conversation with my sis on the topic and she indicated that the pragmatic approach on which most laws are based appear to be the distinction between in uterus and ex uterus - i.e the fetus is for practical purposes considered a fetus as long as it is in the mother's womb, and a baby once outside. Not very satisfactory. I'll continue to look into this; I've got a bioethics book laying around here somewhere I really should read <g>.

At any rate, it seems for whatever purposes we ha e with this discussion, it's primarily a legal one.

An embryo is a living entity during its first developmental period. This is important, because it is much more likely to to live than a zygote (i.e the egg after first  cell split (zy=2)or a blastomer (egg divived to 8 cells)or morula (16 cells), all of the aforementioned states not having achieved differentiation or cyntysia-formation.

As a last teaser and a very good question: consider the times when a woman's life is threatened by a pregnancy - in these cases it is clear that society views the woman's life as more important than the potential baby's (or baby's, if you're in that camp). If given equal status, we'd have an interesting problem: who should have a right to live? Let  nature have it course? Let the woman defend her own life? Let the fetus/babys right supercede that of the woman?

There's a very clear precedent on this one.

This whole topic really is a can o' worms. It's not just about abortion - it's about *everything* that can happen during a pregnancy. Abortion is just one of those things. I'd be happy to explore others. I love such discussions for some twisted reason.
 
Woman's right vs child, if her life is in danger?


Late abortions like in 7th month are impractical, difficult and dangerous and very much an exception.

Offline StSanta

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2001, 06:16:00 AM »
Ok, I think it'd be unfair to only promote my own views without looking into the other side. I did a quickie web search and came up with a very interesting pro-life site, that's done the way i like it - factual, well argued and built with references. it can be found at
 http://www.bioethix.org/resources/aps/beckwith-personhood.htm

and I can recommend it.

If anyone is sick enough to want to discuss this article with me, I'm up for it as it is not without flaws  :). I doubt that one can find a much more coherent and consistent article than this one on the net though; it is quite good.

Offline Sandman

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2001, 07:34:00 AM »
Interesting article... It makes a good case that a fetus is indeed a person.

So... that leaves the rights argument. Do the rights of the fetus supercede the rights of the mother. Who has the greater claim to the womb?
sand

Offline Eagler

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2001, 08:17:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta:
Personhood seems to be granted after 30 days. Or when the body somehow is injected with a soul..

I'll time that next go round, given the would be mom makes the right "Choice"  :)
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Offline Toad

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2001, 09:21:00 AM »
Isn't the web amazing? Two or three clicks and...


       

That's US figures, 1997 from this site:
 http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Which also has this chart:
     


The 1997 dot there looks like 22.2 per 1,000 women aged 15-44.

Another site, http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0764203.html  , gives 1,184,758 as the total number of legal US abortions in 1997.

So, (in 1997) apparently 1% of 1,184,758 legal abortions were 21 weeks or later.

Not real definitive but a bit more clear.

So it was ONLY ~ 11,847 little pairs of hands like those in the picture that got sliced, extracted and flushed.

In the end, each of us answers to himself. I guess I've made my CHOICE.     :D

[ 07-03-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Sandman

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Something to ponder in the Rowe vs Wade decision:
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2001, 09:40:00 AM »
Right... and those 11,000 aborted simply because the mother made a choice. These were no doubt extreme cases involving irreperable birth defects and/or threat to the very life of the mother.

This is a non-issue.
sand