Author Topic: Why blame GW...  (Read 1181 times)

Offline miko2d

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Why blame GW...
« on: March 30, 2001, 12:26:00 PM »
 He is just our elected representative and is supposed to help us (Americans) implement what we want.
 If anyone wonders what we want to do about pollution, he should just look what kind of vehicles we are driving, how poorly thermonsulated our houses are, etc.
 Why would our president do something contrary to our population wishes?

 Europeans and japanese are criticising us but guess who sells us gas-gussling SUVs and more and more powerfull compact cars? New Volkswagen Jetta is coming out with 201 HP 6-cylinder engine. Wake up people, we have speed limit of 55-65 mph here - that's 88-104 kph for metric people. How much power do we need in a compact car (yes, Jetta is a compact here)? So I have to slow down going uphill in my 105hp Honda Civic - do you see many mountains in USA?

 Your companies are making money on us polluting the athmosphere, so please stop the hyppocricy. Make a law not to export engines of more then 105 hp in the passenger cars to savages like us.
 Then concervationists here (like me) will have something to tell our fellow americans. We are not so stupid as to not notice you saying one thing and doing anther.

 What about the Concorde? Isn't it a european plane flying every day from NY to Paris and London and carrying a fifth of the people for ten times the fuel? What's the rush? You like us so much you cannot bear to wait a couple more hours to see us?

 Ever heard of car exhaust pollution standards? Last time I saw in europe I was choking on the exaust. You can jog along a busy american highway. In Paris I had to slow down my walk and hold my breath every time a puny european car drove by. Do not tell me you cannot make cleaner-working cars - 2/3 of the cars here are yours. It just costs money, right?
 Speaking of air quality, I had to hold my breath most of the time in europe - it looks like %90 of the population is smoking like there is no tomorrow. Why do you care about the ozon layer, people? Skin cancer caused by UV should be a drop in the bucket compared to your general cancer statistics.
 The way we are going, a person reaching for a sigarette will soon be shot without warning in the US.

 Have you looked at those Kioto accords? It does seem fair that developing counties are not resticted as much as US and Europe, right? So they could develop. Anyone think what will really happen? Here is a scenario:
 - Americans produce 1 million dildoes releasing 2 millions tons of CO2 on our advanced equipment and sell them for $100.
 - We are required to cut the CO2 to 1.9 million tons which would drive the price of a dildoe to $150.
 - The company closes, 50,000 american dildoe makers lose their jobs, they do not have to drive to work in their cars - so we have much cleaner air here. So far so good.
 - The dildoe-making operation opens in India, which, as a developing country, is allowed to keep less modern equipment. They produce the same 1 million dildoes releasing 5 million tonns of CO2. Because the labor is cheap and environmental expense is nonexistant, those dildoes are sold in the US for $25. Come to think of it at those prices we can afford 2 million of them, make that 10 million tonns of CO2 released in India!

 We couldn't be happier - clean air in US, plenty of dildoes to go around, no blame to bear.

 Even if everything was all right, more then words would be needed to persuade an average american to buy a smaller car, keep a house hotter in the summer and colder in the winter, take showers as rarely as europeans do, etc. people just do not understand the need to kill the economy in order to save something they have very vague idea about. After all, our average IQ is 100 - just plain dumb.

 I am sure when someone comes up with a working way, it will be used. If not, the nature has a way to correct exesses - usually through dying on a massive scale. Time to look for a place for a house somewhere higher up and in the shadow.

miko

Offline Swoop

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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2001, 12:47:00 PM »
"Why would our president do something contrary to our population wishes?"

LMAO.  Ya really want an answer?

"Wake up people, we have speed limit of 55-65 mph here"

Wake up, how many people do you know who *always* obey the speed limit.

"do you see many mountains in USA?"

Um....yes actually.

"What about the Concorde?"

yeah, what about it?  Americans fly on it too ya know......the only reason ya do is cos ya dont have a supersonic airliner of your own.  Some people prefer a 3 hour trip instead of 8....go figure.

If ya really want to argue about US v Euro/Jap cars then dont look at the HP, look at the gas mileage.

I could go on but I wont.  Lemme just add that you cant spell dildo either.

 



Offline miko2d

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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2001, 01:59:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by Swoop:[/B]

"Why would our president do something contrary to our population wishes?"
 LMAO. Ya really want an answer?


 Swoop, do not believe that we, americans are smart and well-wishing people and evil politicians screw us over and evil Holliwood destroys our mind.
 Politicians here do what we elect them to do and Holliwood shows us what we want to see.
 You could say that corporation lobby politicians to implement the policy they need. But those corporations have their power in the money that we pay for their products. Horse breeders did not succeed in banning automobiles because people stopped buying horses and started buying cars. If we stop buying lot's of fuel, there will not be need to drill Alaska - lobbying or no.
 We have a few of well-wishing nuts who demand changes and are seen by the world. Most of us are not like that. Not that changes are not welcome. It's just that laws pof society are as immutable as laws of nature. Wishing for society to spontaneously conserve is as fruitfull as wishing for gravity to subside.

"Wake up people, we have speed limit of 55-65 mph here"
 Wake up, how many people do you know who *always* obey the speed limit.


 So you see my point? If we do not care to obey our own laws, why expect us to care if some europeans drown in a global flood? I do not expect you to care either because you are selling us those cars. 55 mph limit was adopted specifically for concervation. Anyone driving on our highway can see that we are not interested in concervation.

"do you see many mountains in USA?"
Um... yes actually.

 Sure, peope in Montana have my blessing to drive SUV or move to a flatter terrain. Wanna bet that there are more SUV per person in New York then in Montana, though?

"What about the Concorde?"
yeah, what about it?  Americans fly on it too ya know......the only reason ya do is cos ya dont have a supersonic airliner of your own.  Some people prefer a 3 hour trip instead of 8....go figure.

 That is what I am saying. Save 3 hours and let Europe drown. At least we are honest about it.
 I assume you do not imply that we couldn't build a supersonic transport? Even russians had it. We have plenty of fast and polluting stuff - take Space Shuttle.

If ya really want to argue about US v Euro/Jap cars then dont look at the HP, look at the gas mileage.
 Not enough difference (if any) to get all uppity about it. I am talking about the models you sell here. I know you have better stuff designed. We have too. It's just nobody is buying it.

I could go on but I wont.  Lemme just add that you cant spell dildo either.
 Not an expert...  

 What I am saying is, we have the president we deserve and you make money off our pollution.

 Let me repeat, we are not interested in energy concervation. We are interested in conserving our money. If fuel costs go higher, we will conserve more and saving technologies will be more viable too.

miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 03-30-2001).]

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2001, 02:03:00 PM »
 ---

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 03-30-2001).]

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2001, 03:07:00 PM »
A lot of Euros (and quite a few Americans) don't understand that all of the USA isn't like a city/suburb setting.

Try moving to West Virginia or Wyoming or New Mexico, and you'll see why higher fuel prices would only destroy the US economy.

In cities and rural areas where settlements are fairly close together (like New York), high gas prices aren't as important because there are alternatives--you have carpooling and mass transit available.  Add to this the fact that the people who live in these areas tend to have a higher average income, and fuel prices become less of an issue.

This is also why Europe can survive with their incredible gas prices.

However, MUCH of the USA is composed of rural areas where settlements are far apart and access is difficult.  In these areas, there is NO mass transit, carpooling isn't an option, and you must drive long distances on a daily basis over roads that severly punish the vehicle.

Also, because of the lack of "city services", the roads are generally in questionable state of passability--which means small cars tend to get stuck a lot and aren't very useful.  Some relatives who live in WV have to drive through a creek bed just to reach their house--let's see a Honda Civic do THAT on a daily basis!  

Add to this the fact that in these rural areas, the people tend to be a bit on the poor side, and you'll soon see why high gasoline prices would destroy the USA.

Increasing the cost of gas isn't the answer to our pollution problem.  What we need is an affordable, cleaner alternative to gasoline.  Electric cars will never be practical, and the gas-electric hybrids are a maintenence nightmare.  However, there ARE technologies in development which might work in the near future.

J_A_B

[This message has been edited by J_A_B (edited 03-30-2001).]

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2001, 03:13:00 PM »
Most European cars have an engine capacity under 2000cc. There are big engined cars, but the proportion of those compared to the majority is much smaller compared to the US.

Secondly, many European sports cars use 4 cylinder 2000cc engines that are tweaked to achieve performance. The same goes for many Japanese sports cars (to be frank they seem to be the experts at this these days).

Take the Subabru Impreza Turbo. It can develop 280 BHP on a turbo-charged 2000cc 4 cylinder engine. It does about 25 miles to the gallon, which is good for a car of its capability.

Excuse me Miko, but do you want to explain how the world makes money out of your pollution? For one thing, most British car manufacturing companies are owned by US multi-nationals, Boeing have a huge market share of the aviation industry, you have your own oil reserves, you consume more natural resources per capita than any other developed nation in the world.

You have heard of the Bhopal disaster? Explain how the thousands of Indians who died in that disaster profitted from your pollution - it was an American company who owned that factory. There are dozens like it around the world.

You often whine about 'Euros' criticising your country, but how do you expect people to react when you spout crap about Europeans not washing etc? It's puerile and immediately defeats whatever point you are trying to make.

And what's this about the wonderful, zero emission engines you fit ALL your cars with over there? Or at least it seems that way from what you write - you imply it would actually be BETTER for people to breath the fumes from your exhausts rather than go running in a European city.

Considering the state Los Angeles gets in every time an inversion layer forms, I can't quite believe the picture you are painting.
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Offline straffo

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Why blame GW...
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2001, 05:30:00 PM »
 
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Why blame GW...
I don't blame GW ... but we should punish his parents...

Offline -lynx-

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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2001, 06:28:00 AM »
 
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Europeans and japanese are criticising us but guess who sells us gas-gussling SUVs and more and more powerfull compact cars?
2001 Jeep Cherokee - 6 cyls, 3960cc, 181 hp;
1992 Honda Prelude 2.0SE 16V 4WS - 4 cyls, 1958cc, 148hp (my Big Beautiful Doll  );
2001 Honda S2000 - 4 cyls, 1997cc, 236hp (the most powerful/litre naturally aspirated engine on a production car)...

What was wrong with the powerful compact cars again?  

Defense rests  

Jokes aside - it's a "normal" American car that is a gas-guzzler, my 9 year-old Honda is doing 30 mpg on average, 34 on a motorway and I drive... err... fast   On the other hand as far as I know California has got the stringest emission laws in the world and don't particularly care how the manufacturers are going about meeting those either?

Wouldn't remember a source but I've read somewhere that a single volcano eruption spits out more crap in the atmosphere than humanity has managed since we came out of the caves...

p.s. "Powerful" - does not necessarily mean "polluting"/"high emissions". Toyota Carina E about 8 years ago claimed 106hp from 1.6 engine and ~60 mpg. SAAB ran a commercial claiming that the exhaust gases coming out of their cars were cleaner than the air sucked into the inlet manifold (Tokyo)...

[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 04-02-2001).]

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2001, 07:04:00 AM »
Because he LIED?

Just like Clinton lied?

Except Bush lied about stuff that affects ME?

He's a liar.   Hard to swallow, but you guys blasted Clinton; surely you must see this as a lie as well.

Or maybe it is just an "adaptation to changing times".

Let's see if there are any hypocrites ready to expose themselves out there.



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Offline SOB

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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2001, 09:37:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by miko2d:
Europeans and japanese are criticising us but guess who sells us gas-gussling SUVs and more and more powerfull compact cars? New Volkswagen Jetta is coming out with 201 HP 6-cylinder engine. Wake up people, we have speed limit of 55-65 mph here - that's 88-104 kph for metric people. How much power do we need in a compact car (yes, Jetta is a compact here)? So I have to slow down going uphill in my 105hp Honda Civic - do you see many mountains in USA?

I drive a 1997 Chevy Tahoe made by GM (a US company)...half of it was probably manufactured in a different country, but that's another story.  It's rated MPG is 13 city/ 17 hwy.  And how about that monstrosity known as the Ford Excoursion.  The extra horsepower my truck kicks out wasn't made because it was necessary, it was made because I (as a consumer) want it to go real fast when I hit the pedal.  Blame me, not the car manufacturers here and in Europe or Japan...they're just supporting my bad habits.

Mountains?  Well, if I drive East, I drive over the Cascades.  If I drive West, I drive over the Coast Range.

 
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Even if everything was all right, more then words would be needed to persuade an average american to buy a smaller car, keep a house hotter in the summer and colder in the winter...

True, and I do like my air conditioning.  Hell, when I'm driving in summer it's cranked in the gas guzzler!  

 
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take showers as rarely as europeans do, etc.

hehehe


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Offline Jigster

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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2001, 10:55:00 AM »
Europeans are just mad because you can drive for a few hundred miles in parts of the US and see nothing but nothing.

They got to pork the world during the industrial revolution. Have they payed any consequences? Other then live in the aftermath, no. It's a double standard. Let us screw up the world for a few more decades then we'll call it even.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2001, 12:53:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Most European cars have an engine capacity under 2000cc. There are big engined cars, but the proportion...

 The Mercedes, BMW, Saabs, Volvos, Volkswagens, Toyotas, Hondas, Mitsubishis, etc, that european and japanese companies sell in US have the same power and fuel efficiency as the US brands.
 Regardless what they are using in their countries, they criticise us for polluting while selling us the polluting cars.

 Excuse me Miko, but do you want to explain how the world makes money out of your pollution?
 All the above companies are making money selling those brands to us.

you consume more natural resources per capita than any other developed nation in the world.
 Of coure, because we drive the gas guzzling cars. We live in wide spread suburbs instead of economical tightly-packed cities. We are guilty. But you sell us half of those cars to make money despite your claims for cleaner air, so you a complacent and hyppocritical.

You have heard of the Bhopal disaster? Explain how the thousands of Indians who died in that disaster profitted from your pollution
 Industrial accidents happen everywhere. That plant was operating according to Indian laws, employing indians and paying indian taxes and produced products that indians needed too.
 How many English-owned plants operate outside England?
 Any plant can blow. That's industrial age for you. Before that you got kicked by a horse or sacrificed to the gods.

You often whine about 'Euros' criticising your country, but how do you expect people to react when you spout crap about Europeans not washing etc?
 I was trying to be funny, but if you want to dwell on it, compare the statistics - showers taken per week, amount of water spent in the household, etc.

 And what's this about the wonderful, zero emission engines you fit ALL your cars with over there? Or at least it seems that way from what you write - you imply it would actually be BETTER for people to breath the fumes from your exhausts rather than go running in a European city.
 That is exactly what I said. Because of tougher pollution standards in US, the cars sold here are equipped with special devices (catolythic converters, etc) at a cost of $500-$800 dollars per car. As a result, a new american car that consumes more fuel produces  fumes that are much less noxious then a new small european car. It may be that the difference is mostly in the smell/taste but here it is.
 The amount of water and CO2 is determined by the amount of fuel spent, but the really poisonous stuff, like CO, nitrogen and sulphur compaunds, dioxin, etc. are much better controlled here then in most of the Europe.

Considering the state Los Angeles gets in every time an inversion layer forms, I can't quite believe the picture you are painting.
 You are watching the movies from the 70s, right?   Just come and see. LA has a special weather conditions. Still, the smog problem improved drastically over the last 20 years in all US cities.

miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 04-02-2001).]

Offline -lynx-

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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2001, 01:20:00 PM »
 
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That is exactly what I said. Because of tougher pollution standards in US, the cars sold here are equipped with special devices (catolythic converters, etc) at a cost of $500-$800 dollars per car. As a result, a new american car that consumes more fuel produces fumes that are much less noxious then a new small european car. It may be that the difference is mostly in the smell/taste but here it is.
It may come as a shock Miko but here in the UK everysingle car sold after 1 Jan 1992 is equipped with a Cat. Yep - you heard it right - every single little stinker comes with a catalytic converter .  
Quote
The amount of water and CO2 is determined by the amount of fuel spent, but the really poisonous stuff, like CO, nitrogen and sulphur compaunds, dioxin, etc. are much better controlled here then in most of the Europe.
pass on whatever you call "rest of Europe" but the Central Europe drives the same cars coming off the same production lines hence they are all adhere to the same standards. Eg Lada had to pull out of the UK market cuz they could not produce clean enough cars... The rest of your statement is... err... not correct?  It's the efficiency of burning the fuel that reduces the pollution as well as quality of that fuel. I dare you to show how an average 4-6 litre American "muscle" V6/8 producing 180-200 hp is more efficient at converting more fuel into less pollution than a modern European/Japaneese engine developing more power out of half the capacity. I've gotta know some of this stuff - I did a diploma in catalytic burning of low level pollutants .

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2001, 01:46:00 PM »
Miko, you're 'up' on all the economics of business, and the 'market forces' that determine the products that a company sells. Tell me, who are buying those European orginated cars? You realise that a volvo sold in the US, will have completely different specs. to one sold in Europe, but fail to see that the bottom line is they are supplying a US market that has certain demands, and one of those is large engined cars.

You are trying to blame Europe for the US's huge resource consumption on a few European cars? Surely it's more to do with the mentality in the US. European manufacturers have been forced to innovate due to high petrol prices - US maufacturers never had that problem and so has kept building big engined cars.

The message is that there's nothing wrong with consumption if you can pay for it - that's the way it seems to me.

You also seem to be implying that European/Japanese manufacturers have cornered the automotive market in the US - I find that very hard to believe, despite how far US manufacturers may have fallen since the 50's.

'Any plant can blow'. Do you work in heavy industry? You must know that that mentality simply does not exist these days - I work for an American Multi-national, and they are SOOOO hot on safety it hurts. The Bhopal plant would NEVER had received planning permission in either the US or Western Europe - the Chemical company exploited national poverty and effectively made a risk assessment that went 'several thousand dead Indians is more acceptable than environmental pollution in the US'. That is the bottom line.

Come on Miko, you really want to debate personal hygiene? Show me some comparative stats on say UK personal hygiene standards versus US.

 
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That is exactly what I said. Because of tougher pollution standards in US, the cars sold here are equipped with special devices (catolythic converters, etc) at a cost of $500-$800 dollars per car. As a result, a new american car that consumes more fuel produces fumes that are much less noxious then a new small european car. It may be that the difference is mostly in the smell/taste but here it is.
The amount of water and CO2 is determined by the amount of fuel spent, but the really poisonous stuff, like CO, nitrogen and sulphur compaunds, dioxin, etc. are much better controlled here then in most of the Europe.

Lynx has already pointed out the glaring inaccuracies in this statement, particular ly how emission standards in the UK are very, very strict. Also, please show me statistics that support your assertions; specifically detail comparisons with Western Europe and the US, not Eastern Europe. Not one stands up to scruntiny, I think you'll find.

'LA has a special weather condition'? Nice dodge    , but it is still a problem, no matter how much it has been reduced in recent years. A symptom of the gas-guzzling cars you have, pure and simple.



[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 04-02-2001).]
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Offline MrLars

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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2001, 06:17:00 PM »
Why?

'cause he's a blithering idiot!
IMO, naturaly

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