Author Topic: something that has always bothered me about star trek  (Read 1128 times)

Offline Mustaine

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something that has always bothered me about star trek
« on: August 09, 2005, 02:44:13 PM »
especially the next generation, and further series.

in many cases they come across aliens who don;t understand that they (the federation people) do not work for profit. they mention many times there is no "money"

if so, how do they get houses on earth, and cars and stuff....

are they just "given" to them?

would you build a house for free for someone to live in?

are all houses the same size and design?

who gets the big house?

all that crap. it is really buggin me today at work LMAO. (bored, equipment broken down all day, nothing to do)
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Offline soda72

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Re: something that has always bothered me about star trek
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2005, 02:54:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mustaine
especially the next generation, and further series.

in many cases they come across aliens who don;t understand that they (the federation people) do not work for profit. they mention many times there is no "money"

if so, how do they get houses on earth, and cars and stuff....

are they just "given" to them?

would you build a house for free for someone to live in?

are all houses the same size and design?

who gets the big house?

all that crap. it is really buggin me today at work LMAO. (bored, equipment broken down all day, nothing to do)


Gene Roddenberry must have believed communism was the wave of the future.......

:)

Offline rpm

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something that has always bothered me about star trek
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2005, 03:06:11 PM »
On DS9 the little Ferenge that ran the casino was always drooling about gold pressed latinum. On the original ST they were always running across traders, ect. (Remember the Tribbles?)

Maybe it was just a flaw in the scripts or different writers spinning things different ways.
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Offline Seagoon

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something that has always bothered me about star trek
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2005, 03:08:43 PM »
You have too much time on your hands Mustaine. Then again, who has too much time, the guy who wonders these things or the guy who responds to the guy who wonders these things? :D

Anyway, the late Gene Roddenberry was a  humanist who constructed the Star Trek universe as his ideal Utopia. It's politics are egalitarian and small "s" socialist, it's philosophy was entirely materialist. You'll notice, for instance, that in every Star Trek  episode where religion is a factor, its a baneful influence. All of the forces that are for accumulating power or wealth are clearly the "bad guys" and the good guys are universal altruists.

Roddenberry obviously had a rather idealistic view of human nature. For instance, the Holodeck. In reality you'd quickly be powerless to get the crew to leave it as they constantly lived out, not Klingon right of manhood rituals or Sherlock Holmes stories, but every sexual or power fantasy they could think of. In fact, its doubtful the ship would ever make it into orbit. Or the Replicator - how many would be standing by it pretty much 24 by 7 and saying "Champagne" and "Lobster" and so on. In reality you'd have a crew of obese perverts in no time, pretty similar to the workforce of some software shops I worked with. As a fellow I met a while back put it, "My Hobbies? Well  uhhh.. Fast Food, Fantasy Games, and Internet Porn - but not necessarily in that order. "

Anyway for an interesting interview where Roddenberry explains his philosophy, click here

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SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline rshubert

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Re: Re: something that has always bothered me about star trek
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2005, 03:12:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by soda72
Gene Roddenberry must have believed communism was the wave of the future.......

:)


I remember the collectivist stuff they were putting out on TNG.  It was never fully explained how the economy worked, but ithere was one episode (I think when some corpsicle was reanimated, or some such) where Picard or Riker lectured the guy on how society had grown beyond the need for money.  

When Roddenberry died, that crap went away.  Particularly on DS9, everybody was always chasing around after "gold pressed latinum", whatever that is.

Early Star Trek stuff was always playing with not-so-hidden messages, anti-war, anti-government, anti-racism, etc.  Not to say that the message is wrong--they weren't, mostly--but I detest getting lectured during my mindless entertainment time.

Offline bustr

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something that has always bothered me about star trek
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2005, 03:18:34 PM »
That's why Bradbary<--opps Roddenberry> invented the "Replicator". Just shovel some horse manuer in the back and it spits out a diamond in the front. Sounds very egalitarian, utopian, and progressive to me. Ever notice in Star Shlep no one has bad breath, body oder, dirty cloths, or messed up hair? Who ultimately pays for it all? What kind of dues do Federation members pay to whom for what?

You always get the impression that the species who have working classes that toil for their daily bread are some how more barbaric and agression prone than Federation members who have the magic "Replicator" that removes the need to compete for the necessities of life.

Then again who owns some of the property that regularly gets blown to atoms? And after the shooting stops and the Federation personel come out the heros, who gets the bill for the damage? Ah the magic "replicator" gets some horse manure shoveled in the back and the property owner just pushes a button and the property is magically repaired.

And who owns property when you can park a battle cruiser in geosync orbit and slag it? Ahhhhh, now you need Big Brother, oops, a Federation to protect you from the less developed more aggressive races who have battle cruisers, not "Star Ships" and "replicators". But I thought the magic "replicator" removes a species aggressive tendancies by removing the need to compete for resources????

And by the way, what about that U.N. err oops Federation, yes, I forgot, we'uns be in the 23rd Century. Yes wayyyy back in the 21st century we'alls just gave up and let the Liberals save us from our evil Ferengi tendancies. And "SHAAAZAAAMMMM" they invented the magical mystical "REPLICATOR" and the U.N. gots its act together and saved mother earth and, and, and, disovered the warp drive and, and, and, don't forget the "replicator"................ok I'm gonna stop smacking myself with the hammer to feel better now.......:rolleyes:

Star Trek = Liberals in Spaceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..... ....:cool:

Ever notice how futuristic space opras always seem to have a side message selling socialism as the only way to live in peace and harmony in outer space and capitolists are more evil than the space monster eating every one in the crew?
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Vulcan

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something that has always bothered me about star trek
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2005, 03:27:26 PM »
All that matters is Star Trek had hot green chicks:



I noticed they're back in Enterprise ;)

Offline FalconSix

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something that has always bothered me about star trek
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2005, 03:42:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bustr
That's why Bradbary<--opps Roddenberry> invented the "Replicator". Just shovel some horse manuer in the back and it spits out a diamond in the front. Sounds very egalitarian, utopian, and progressive to me. Ever notice in Star Shlep no one has bad breath, body oder, dirty cloths, or messed up hair? Who ultimately pays for it all? What kind of dues do Federation members pay to whom for what?

You always get the impression that the species who have working classes that toil for their daily bread are some how more barbaric and agression prone than Federation members who have the magic "Replicator" that removes the need to compete for the necessities of life.

Then again who owns some of the property that regularly gets blown to atoms? And after the shooting stops and the Federation personel come out the heros, who gets the bill for the damage? Ah the magic "replicator" gets some horse manure shoveled in the back and the property owner just pushes a button and the property is magically repaired.

And who owns property when you can park a battle cruiser in geosync orbit and slag it? Ahhhhh, now you need Big Brother, oops, a Federation to protect you from the less developed more aggressive races who have battle cruisers, not "Star Ships" and "replicators". But I thought the magic "replicator" removes a species aggressive tendancies by removing the need to compete for resources????

And by the way, what about that U.N. err oops Federation, yes, I forgot, we'uns be in the 23rd Century. Yes wayyyy back in the 21st century we'alls just gave up and let the Liberals save us from our evil Ferengi tendancies. And "SHAAAZAAAMMMM" they invented the magical mystical "REPLICATOR" and the U.N. gots its act together and saved mother earth and, and, and, disovered the warp drive and, and, and, don't forget the "replicator"................ok I'm gonna stop smacking myself with the hammer to feel better now.......:rolleyes:

Star Trek = Liberals in Spaceeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..... ....:cool:

Ever notice how futuristic space opras always seem to have a side message selling socialism as the only way to live in peace and harmony in outer space and capitolists are more evil than the space monster eating every one in the crew?


Actually the story goes more like this: After we nearly wipe ourselves out in WWIII a crazy drunkard scientist in some bummed out desert town converts a leftover ICBM to launch his warp-drive into space. The Vulcans take notice and makes first-contact. The Vulcans teach us the better parts of socialist utopism and save us from self inflicted extinction. Cue Kirk.

The social philosophy of ST is one of self-realization. Everyone is free to realize their own way of life since technology now provides everyone with everything they need. Work in ST is basically a hobby ... something to do while we live.

Offline Chairboy

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something that has always bothered me about star trek
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2005, 03:53:56 PM »
I get the impression that the replicator reduces the need for as much specialization, and improves the efficiency of industry by reducing specialized products (eg, you don't have a thousand stem bolts sitting in a warehouse because the market dropped out, you use the replicators to emulate the Japanese 'build on demand' acquisition methodology).

At the same time, it's not magic, because you need trace elements, and they establish that there are plenty of things that a replicator will not create or do on its own.  For example, there's a need for dilithium crystals, right?  They can't replicate them, they have to mine them.  Something about 'gold pressed latinum' exceeds the ability of the replicator.  It stands to reason that there are LOTS of things the replicator can't do, and I note that for the most part, they show it making food and...  that's about all.  There's the occasional reference to using it replicate a broken part, but that's really rare, and there have been plenty of episodes where some piece of equipment needed to be physically gotten (like when they scavenged parts off the other space station that looked like Deep Space 9).  Presumably, replication is both limited in ability and expense with energy, otherwise they would just have big starship replicators that pump out any sized fleet needed.

...which they don't.  It's been repeatedly shown that the process of building a starship is extremely man/woman/critterpower intensive and takes a long time.  The fact that the starfleet exists proves that in that universe, there are shipbuilders doing the work.  It stands to reason that foodstuffs are grown as well, as established on the 'Trouble with Tribbles' episode.  As you recall, Shermans Planet was facing famine, and the plot revolved around a cargo of grain.  

I think that the replicator for food is akin to eating MREs.  Out in the field, you can eat canned stuff and MREs and whatnot all you want, but it's not feasible for large scale populations.  99.99% of the people we see eating from replicators also happen to be military, so it stands to reason that the added expense of using replicators (which also have strategic purposes) is worth it for whatever reason.  Quark has one in his bar, but he's on a station that's presumably far from food supplies, so that use of the replicator is consistent too.

I think Seagoon is right about the socialism with the small s, but that's not the same as communism, and who knows, maybe their specific lack of detail on those regards allows them to say 'some new economic policy that we don't know about yet' that's a mix of stuff we know.

I get the impression that the Federation's economy is deliberately vague for a reason, so it doesn't get in the way of the story.  That said, assuming that the federation DOES follow a socialist model, all is not lost.  The Ferengi appear to represent capitalism without conscience, but even when you're cringing at the scheming those big eared guys are doing, you can't avoid the results.  On DS9, Quark was able to get stuff nobody else could.  If that isn't a subversive way of saying that feddy socialism isn't the end-all answer, I'll eat my hat.

In the end, I'll fall back on the most important point: Star Trek is not a book written by a person with a mission.  Roddenberry might have started it that way, but it's the culmination of hundreds of writers, each with different backgrounds and opinions.  As a consequence, reducing it to 'liberals in space' is a bit disingenuous.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline bustr

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something that has always bothered me about star trek
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2005, 04:22:18 PM »
Ok I'll be a tad more generous.

Babalon 5's social, industrial and cultural environment models are more beleivealble. You can see an attempt at a multiculteral cross section of social/political pyhlosopies, religions and economic practices presented pro and con.

Star Trek follows Roddenberry's one world view and biases. Trekkes are worshipers at the alter of Roddenberry. If you check out that link to the interview Seagoon provided, it was rather boreing counting how many times Roddenberry thinly veils patting himself on the back for being god.

If I wanted that in my real life I can go to Barbera Boxer and Diane Feinstein rallies. Or wait for 2008 and go to John Kerry rallies...................... .....
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline CyranoAH

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something that has always bothered me about star trek
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2005, 04:50:08 PM »
If you want realistic, try Battlestar Galactica (the new one). Politicians that are politicians, various shades of grey (and mr. grey himself, Dr. Baltar) :)

Daniel

PS: Anyone want to play "who is the cylon"? :)

Offline Chairboy

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something that has always bothered me about star trek
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2005, 05:02:34 PM »
Tigh's wife almost seems too easy, I gotta think it's other people.

Babylon 5 and BSG are great, probably because they show what we have now and what we have experience with in the past.  Star Trek economy grates on me because...  well, they don't talk about it enough to know exactly WHAT it IS.  Like other posters have said, there are elements of communism, capitalism, hell, even confucism.  If someone would just TELL us HOW it works then we could PROPERLY tell them how WRONG IT IS.  :D
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Offline CyranoAH

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something that has always bothered me about star trek
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2005, 05:06:51 PM »
Sorry for the hijack, but... if you payed attention in the last 2 episodes, I think it's pretty clear who's a (very unexpected) cylon...

Daniel

Offline Hangtime

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something that has always bothered me about star trek
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2005, 05:22:21 PM »
the hell with the socialist semantics, the holodeck and the replicator..

I want a hand Phaser and a Teleporter. I have a list of places and people to see.. once.
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2005, 05:24:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by CyranoAH
Sorry for the hijack, but... if you payed attention in the last 2 episodes, I think it's pretty clear who's a (very unexpected) cylon...

Daniel


The President's assistant.. the dweeb with the hots fer the cute green eyed black bridge talker.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.