109 article (from www.virtualpilots.fi)

[FalconSix]

It is quite obvious and reasonable to expect the allies to be gentle with captured german aircraft, same with captured allied aircraft in german hands. When you have an enemy machine, usually a one of a kind, you're not going to push the envelope while testing it. Only a fool would risk destroying such a valuable source of intelligence.

For German aircraft use German tests.
For British aircraft use British tests.
For American aircraft use American tests.
For Japanese aircraft use Japanese tests.
For Russian aircraft use Russian tests.

Is that really so unreasonable? Or are your preconceived notions and personal feuds so ingrained in these discussions that you render them and yourselves irrelevant?

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Angus
Does Handley Page slots ring a bell?

[/B]

"Handley-PAge", Angus? Are you aware that Handley Page obtained the license from a WW1 German airman who developed them origina

Only the 109 and Lala amongst all the more common ww2 warbirds featured slots.]

... and the 110,210,410 262 and 163. But roughly, yes. Now tell me, if the Brits did not have any warbird with slats, who could the pilots

When Tobak got his training for the 109 in 1944, the main thing he recalled decades later was 'Rudi' telling to 'ziehen, noch ziehen' in turns.. but the thing I can read in brit reports is that they are emberassed by the slat`s opening.. no Me 109 instructor for them I guess.

And getting more into them, Jeff Quill seems to have the same opinion as Rall.]

I though Quill was the no1 Spitdweeb factory testpilot of Supermarine, manfucaturer the greatest British rival of the 109, himself being quite a bit biased about the spit.. how much time he spent flying 109s? An hour? Two?

I think we should ask Quill about Spits, and Beuvais(sp?) or Williemsen or Schmidt (Me109 test pilots) about the Bf 109.

Now on to tests, - I'd like to see those. I have a German test of a G series aircraft from 1944, and it would be nice to compare.
Off to tests again, - wonder what the situation of captured allied aircraft was. The Germans seemed to like them very much.. [/B]

Hmm... I have a Spitfire test from Germany, and there are no sign of they being amazed - in fact they are quite objective, and note that the plane did not meet the performance the British press claims for it... familiar? As for Allied planes, the P-47 was, well, described as giving 'an extraordinarily sluggish impression'.. Do it`s just typical Angus stuff I guess, mixing up that German pilots were ready to admit the good traits of allied aircraft with believing them superior to their own.

If you want to have an exchange, I havenothing against it.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Angus
Does Handley Page slots ring a bell?
Only the 109 and Lala amongst all the more common ww2 warbirds featured slots.

Off to tests again, - wonder what the situation of captured allied aircraft was. The Germans seemed to like them very much..

Practically all Messerschmitt types had slats, as well as several other German designs. Russians were fond of slats and those can be found for example on their primary fighter line of LaGG/La, but in others as well. British had designs equipped with slats, though not in their famous fighters. On Japanese designs you'll find slats at Ki-43, Ki-84 and other types. I'm not sure about American designs, but the post war F-86 Sabre had identical slats system as the Bf 109 did.

German tests on Allied a/c would certainly be interesting, but unfortunately most seem to have been destroyed, lost or hidden in the final phases of the war. As far as I've heard, only a few test results have been found from Rechlin, which was the Luftwaffe primary testing ground and must have produced thousands of reports. A most unfortunate situation for us :-(

[gripen]

Originally posted by Grendel

German tests on Allied a/c would certainly be interesting, but unfortunately most seem to have been destroyed, lost or hidden in the final phases of the war. As far as I've heard, only a few test results have been found from Rechlin, which was the Luftwaffe primary testing ground and must have produced thousands of reports. A most unfortunate situation for us :-(

If somebody really is interested to read something about german tests on some allied planes, a good starting point would be for example reel 3571 frame 595 (Verglmichsfligen mit den Typen: Bf 109, FW 190, Mustang neueste Ausführung, Thunderbolt) in the NASM.

Generally if somebody wants to claim something about  tests (on captured planes or what ever), it would be a good idea to read the report first. Right, Grendel?

gripen

[butch2k]

Gripen AFAIK only first part of this report is readable, or do you have a better copy at hands ?

[milian]

The RAE tests of the 109 are worthless.

hmm, 2700 rpm on a DB 601? and under fth at 2km? and all along I thought max rpm on a DB 601 was 2400 rpm.  It's not possible that a DB 601 could run at 2500 rpm 1.45 ata is it?  No, that's not possible, then it would be faster that a Spitfire, and that's just not possible.

I guess RAE tests aren't always totally worthless.

[gripen]

Originally posted by butch2k
Gripen AFAIK only first part of this report is readable, or do you have a better copy at hands ?

I have just the first part from that microfilm (one page) and AFAIK that's all they have of that document in NASM. Anyway, practically all captured German material they had (they did not microfilm all and some of the microfilmed are unreadable) was transferred sooner or later back to europe but scattered around different archives all around. It has been said that the Germans destroyded about 90% of the document material they had but luckily their bureaucratic system produced about 20 copies of each document so there is hope to find a lot more than that.

BTW the document (even incomplete) says lot more than "sluggish" about the Thunderbolt and it also says a lot about Mustang too.

gripen

[milian]

while I'm at it . . .



3300 RPM!!! nein, das ist nicht richtig, das ist ja unglaublich!

[butch2k]

Originally posted by gripen
I have just the first part from that microfilm (one page) and AFAIK that's all they have of that document in NASM. Anyway, practically all captured German material they had (they did not microfilm all and some of the microfilmed are unreadable) was transferred sooner or later back to europe but scattered around different archives all around. It has been said that the Germans destroyded about 90% of the document material they had but luckily their bureaucratic system produced about 20 copies of each document so there is hope to find a lot more than that.

BTW the document (even incomplete) says lot more than "sluggish" about the Thunderbolt and it also says a lot about Mustang too.

gripen

THat's the report indeed, there are several more pages bur they are totaly unreadable that's why they sent you just one page.

[gripen]

Originally posted by butch2k
THat's the report indeed, there are several more pages bur they are totaly unreadable that's why they sent you just one page.

That's good news. I believed NASM listing which claimed just one page and incomplete document. It's quite probable that original document still exists but where is a good question. I've seen Wright Field Microfilm stamps in documents  coming from many archives. BAMA might be the most probable and also most difficult to search.

gripen

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
Well I think the situation is quite clear about the article, there are some people with strong agenda against the Bf 109 and attempt to describe it as a worthless POS at every opportunity, the MiloMoron, gripen, paseolati, guppy, Mike Williams etc. They  manipulate the evidence and primary sources to create new myths, while some others create new ones simply because they don`t know the design very well and rely on old books that ever since become obsolate references.

BarbI, we don't view your 'uber' 109 wearing horse blinkers and near sighted glasses as you do. We view it with open eyes and mind, unlike you who goes off on a beserker rant every time someone points out a fantasy you have of the 'uber' 109. We don't have trouble reading primary sources unlike you who only sees what he wants to see, and ignores all that does not, and manipulates the data to support his 'uber' 109 fantasy.

Naturally you see the British reports as slander against your 'uber' 109 but then you think all Brits are blithering frothing at the mouth idiots. They knew what they were testing and knew what a/c were being met in combat. It is only you, and a few others of your ilk, that can't see what the reports really are.

[FalconSix]

Garbage?

[Charge]

"Can anybody tell me what kind of effect H-P slats have on how much AoA the 109 can pull according to its wing profile -with and without slats?"

C'mon, lots of bright people here. Anybody? F a c t s, fiction? Anything?

-C+

[Kurfürst]

Niklas has some maximum Cl values for the 109E on his site, unfurtunately I havent seen any specific for w./wo slats for the 109. Some general slats/flaps data yes, but these would be inconclusive, since the properties of each airplane can lead to very different results. So we are left with the common sense of LES increasing max. AoA and Cl above the avarage, unless someone comes up with something specific..

[Angus]

Hello Kuffie.
How do you do ?
Anyway, the slats and general performance on some 109's ROCK, and the same occurs on some 109's the other way around?

Does the 109 climb at max with slats open BTW?

Just me being curious.

Back to IWO

>Angus