Author Topic: Knocking out B24's  (Read 1119 times)

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Knocking out B24's
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2005, 06:46:40 AM »
The key to succesful buff hunting is to take it slow, unless there's an absolute need to shoot them down ASAP(Which, in the MA, is quite frequent, btw..)

 Like many have mentioned, the best possible approach to target requires sufficient speed, angle, and altitude. Also, staying out of the tail-gunner's cone of fire is the most important thing of all. This is because;

a) most people are used to tracking/firing from the tail-gunner's position

b) being inside the tail-gunner's cone of fire is the most dangerous place to be, when attacking a buff. Most of the buff's defensive armament are placed to fire at something approaching from behind

c) every bit of firepower helps, the higher the range of lethality, the better your chances of survival when making the initial attack and final departure.

 
 Also as many have mentioned, people commonly make the mistake of approaching from behind - which, is basically a place you don't want to be at all.



Quote
I don't like it when people say "only attack from the high front" because 99% of the time the bombers are hauling bellybutton at 250MPH and you're behind them trying to catch up. It's impossible to catch, overtake, turn around and then attack from the front in almost every case I've ever seen.


 Despite it all, an attack from the frontal quarters IS the most effective and safe method of attack. Like Mustaine mentioned, if you want to bring down a buff you take adequate preparations for the job, and positioning yourself for an attack is very important.

 Ofcourse, you can be flying in something like a Me262 5k+ above the buff formation - in which case, you have a good chance of succeeding in a high speed attack which more often than not will knock out all three of them in a single pass.

 However, in most cases one must do whatever he needs to do to take up a position which will ensure success - flying ahead of the buffs, while it is time consuming, is one of them.


 An alternate method of attack, is a 90 degrees "slice" - which works well if you are not patient enough to fly ahead of them. Fly ahead of them a little bit, and then turn and approach them at 90 degrees deflection. Having a powerful firepower (such as the Fw190A-8 with 2xMK108s) helps. Your primary target is the tail surface, most usually the vertical rudder. A good aim at 90 degrees deflection, and the rudders will fall off - minimum ammo spent to bring down such a large bird.



 At any rate, like with all other thinfs, it takes practice. Even with practice, dealing with a buff pilot experienced in defensive gunnery is always a dangerous bit.

Offline Booz

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 371
Knocking out B24's
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2005, 06:01:36 PM »
Like Simaril with the details....

   I usually take a P-47 and climb so that I'm sitting directly outside and over his right or left wingtip 1.5k above him travelling about 225 <--at least as fast as him, else you'll dive into his 6 cone. I'll then quickly roll over and nose down into him (full 180 barrelroll diving) and start aiming for the spot out front of his plane where his wingroot will be when I get there (learn to work those views!)... it leaves me slashing in from his very high 7-8 o'clock position (or 4-5) towards out front of his nose (not directly into the top gunner) which is hard for them to lead & hit me...I'll be upright out of the roll at 800 yds(diving hard forward) and start firing at 600 yds out as he crosses my path (all guns harmonized to 400 yds). A 2 second bust of 8 (or even 6) fifties can consistently put the plane on fire if you hit the wingroot. You get more "guns on" time than charging from ahead from 2 or 11 oclock and the roll throws them off as well as being a bad angle anyway.

  You have the choice of diving out front or under him depending on how your aim was, level out at his 2 (or 11 position) just below his alt at 300+ mph extending ahead and away & getting ready to climb above him again once 1.5k out, repeat from the other side.

  It's time consuming & requires patience, but it's the safest way I've found. I'm secure enough with this method to even do it with F4U-4s.
 (20-4 vs 24s)

  For lancaster & B-17s, lead your aim outside more for the wingtips.
 
Booz
« Last Edit: August 25, 2005, 06:06:24 PM by Booz »

Offline Mustaine

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4139
Knocking out B24's
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2005, 08:28:28 PM »
here's some films from tonight...

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/180_1125019173_bomberkilling.zip

now first off, these are my examples, and i am not a great pilot and all, but you will get the idea. also these are NOT what you'd call "elite" bomber gunners (sorry to those in film)

films:

"b24 01" is a textbook JB73 / Mustaine bomber attack. i hate to give out my secrets for free LOL, but the evade after the pass is really important.

"lanc 01" starts out ok, again in a favorable position to kill off the bat, but not only do i get greedy on the last bomber, i get sloppy, and get hit and lose a gun. i was worried the friendly la7 would come in and "steal" the last bomber, so i hurried in my setup and came in from dead 6. partially i did it because it was a lanc, and they dont have lazers for guns :lol  second to teach a lesson in these films. i figure i am a piss-poor gunner, and the time it takes me in the dead 6 to kill this guy is an eternity for a tailgunner to rip me to shreds.

"b24 02" is exactly what some here are asking about. you are in a POOR position to start with for an attack, but want the kills before another friendly takes them. part of how you "in" with a bomber is what he is doing. this guy was in F3 externally probably,. lining up for his divebomb of the city. thats why i risked it and attacked low 6 for a split second at the end. this is a prime example of how to "wait" for the opprotune time to hit a bomber in AH


now not once in these films did i take the time to go totally HO on the attacks... there are nuances to every attack. depending on the first engagement i may change my tactics at will. take 999000 for example. i will extend a HELLA lot further before re-engage and a HELLA lot higher.

i basically treat every bomber like him or tatertot until i see different from that first engagement


hope those teach something
« Last Edit: August 25, 2005, 08:33:17 PM by Mustaine »
Genetically engineered in a lab, and raised by wolverines -- ]V[ E G A D E T ]-[
AoM DFC ZLA BMF and a bunch of other acronyms.

Offline Atlatl

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Knocking out B24's
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2005, 03:11:51 PM »
Excellent films, Mustaine.

You're aiming points on the wing  roots are the information I was most excited to see in your films. It's also interesting to note the firepower difference between the planes (Ki-84 v. P47), with the P47 getting nearly instantaneous results when the rounds hit the aircraft.
I'd also say you're running some significant risk sitting behind those Lancs, and the B24s when you did. I'm a bit surprised the 24 pilot didn't scrap the run and head for the guns...it might have lead to a more successful buff run in the end.

Thanks for the films.

And, again, thanks to the others for their valuable input.

Atlatl

Offline Mustaine

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4139
Knocking out B24's
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2005, 03:24:32 PM »
well dont forget, those P47's have 8 .50's firing at the same time, all convergend on the same point ;)
Genetically engineered in a lab, and raised by wolverines -- ]V[ E G A D E T ]-[
AoM DFC ZLA BMF and a bunch of other acronyms.

Offline SkyWolf

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 599
Knocking out B24's
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2005, 07:01:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mustaine
well dont forget, those P47's have 8 .50's firing at the same time, all convergend on the same point ;)


What Convergence were the guns set at?

Offline Mustaine

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4139
Knocking out B24's
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2005, 09:26:10 AM »
i set all my guns to 275, though i was further out than that, it is still not as spread out as it could have been.

also, as i got closer the guns became more concnetrated.
Genetically engineered in a lab, and raised by wolverines -- ]V[ E G A D E T ]-[
AoM DFC ZLA BMF and a bunch of other acronyms.

Offline SkyWolf

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 599
Knocking out B24's
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2005, 05:24:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mustaine
i set all my guns to 275, though i was further out than that, it is still not as spread out as it could have been.

also, as i got closer the guns became more concnetrated.


Ah.. ok... it looked like you were chewing them up pretty good from the moment you started firing.